doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com St. Hubert BLE in 16

French retailed gun, clearly Belgian-made. Good weight and dimensions, 3rd fastener. Any guesses as to who might of made it? It says "Belgique" on action.

Pictures of the proofs marks??

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a%20a%20artisans%20identifies%20gb.htm

http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

Skeettx: still at work. Maybe later tonight.

Belgique just means Belgium, so that doesn't help much other than to confirm that's where it was made. Even though France has had a very active gun industry for a long time, a surprising number of Belgian-made guns have been sold there.

Was St. Hubert a location or street, possibly in Paris ?

Nah, he was a Bishop or similar in Liege & was the Patron Sankt of Hunters, fellas that tote up their ciphers and maybe some tradesmen?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I have a nicely made over under from Belgium. The barrels are marked "A Saint Hubert Paris"

"Belgique" is the only other script on the gun , along with typical Belgian proofmarks.

Really, a very nice 16-bore bird gun, 6 lbs even, 27 1/2-inch tubes, fairly open chokes, 15 1/4-inch LOP (over a 3/4-inch leather-covered pad).





This gun also says St. Hubert, Paris on it's tubes as well. The assumption at the shop was that St. Hubert acted as a retailer?

Pretty little gun. Reeks of quality, and in outstanding condition.

Has your boy seen it?


Best,
Ted

There is a Rue Saint-Hubert in Paris:

Saint-Hubert street is a public way situated in the 11th arrondissement of Paris. It begins at 66-70 rue Saint-Maur and ends at 86 Ave de la Republique. This way carries the name of Saint-Hubert, the patron saint of hunters. The way is began off the side of rue Saint-Maur beginning in 1908 using the name "rue Nouvelle," and in 1932 received the name rue Saint-Hubert on the decision of it's river fronting property owners. It was classed as a Parsian street by a law of 8 Jan 1935

La rue Saint-Hubert est une voie publique situ�e dans le 11e arrondissement de Paris. Elle d�bute au 66-70 rue Saint-Maur et se termine au 86 avenue de la R�publique. Cette voie porte le nom de Saint-Hubert, saint patron des chasseurs. Cette voie est amorc�e du c�t� de la rue Saint-Maur � partir de 1908 sous le nom de rue Nouvelle, et re�oit, en 1932, sur d�cision des propri�taires riverains celui de rue Saint-Hubert. Elle est class�e dans la voirie parisienne par un arr�t� du 8 janvier 1935.

There is a Saint-Hubert hunting club in Paris: http://www.sainthubertclubdefrance.com/presentation-du-shcf/historique/



There are other Saint-Hubert Paris guns out there:
FUSIL DE CHASSE � PERCUSSION CENTRALE, chiens ext�rieurs, deux coups, calibre 12-65, de Delahalle � Saint Hubert Paris. Canons juxtapos�s de 68,5 cm. bande plume s�par�e. Crosse demi pistolet en noyer en partie quadrill�e de 36,5 cm. Vers 1880-1900. Fabrication li�geoise

This fellow was a well known Persian gun marketer: P. Delahalle A Saint-Hubert, Paris

Here's a Lebeau Coreilly Belgian Saint-Hubert one for sale at about $12,000:
RARE FUSIL SUPERPOS� SAINT HUBERT � PLATINE � 9.500 �
https://www.chassons.com/petite-annonce/rare-fusil-superpose-saint-hubert-a-platine-9-500-e/#

Lloyd: if you would chalk the barrels flats and marks on the barrels we might have more information. IF the lettre annale is 'r' that would be a 1939 date of proof.
It has 65mm = 2 9/16" chambers.

Daryl, looks very much like a Belgian OU A&F imported in the 30's and sold under their own name. Also in the 30's, there were Belgian-made OU's imported to the States under the Charles Daly name that looked pretty similar. Nice guns.

My guess, on your gun, would be that the A. St. Hubert was the Paris gun shop that sold it. Maybe did some finishing.

Interesting gun. Apparently some cast off, live pigeon gun with 3/4 choke in each barrel. "Probably" made by Lebeau-Courally. That name certainly adds value, but I'd want to be sure it was an L-C gun before making the deal at that price.

Beautiful gun Lloyd. I really hate this when we cannot find out who built that gun. Just another JAABT.

(Just Another Anonymous Belgium Treasure)

Dr. Drew: I thought I had other shots of the barrel flats, but they aren't in proper focus. I'll try to get some more next week when I work again.

Ted: I'd probably consider the gun for him more strongly if I had a better feel for his actual level of interest. Moreover, this gun will likely retail for a bit more than just casual interest would justify. If I didn't already have a 16 that I really liked, I'd certainly be considering it as well.

FWIW: It will likely sell for about half of what I paid for my English gun almost 10-years ago.

Lloyd,
Your English gun might sell for less than it did ten years ago. Last couple of trips the dog and I took, my boy politely declined. Threatening rain on the first, and a bit cold (hell, it was damn cold) on the second.
I'm going tomorrow, likely alone with the dog. Something that never occured to me, until I had a kid, was that my Father ALWAYS had a hunting partner while I was under his roof, and most of the time after I wasn't.
I get casual interest in bird hunting. I just didn't suffer from it as a kid.
You couldn't ask for a finer backup to the Richards. Well, you could, but, if you are buying, you have to consider that. Santa likely has given up on both of us.

Best,
Ted

No question Ted. Things have clearly changed in the gun world. Thankfully, I really haven't, and I am still much-pleased with my old brummie gun. This little Belgian is impressive on many fronts... but it's unlikely to follow me home.

LM

Larry, thanks. A. Saint Hubert may have been a gun shop. Not knowing French, I thought the A might be short for Avenue.

No, not short for avenue. And I couldn't actually see a period after the A. A by itself, but with an accent over it--except they don't use accents on capital letters, and they're often omitted in what's engraved or stamped on a gun anyhow--means at or in. "A Paris" would be "in Paris". But it could also be an individual's name. Tricky.

Anyhow, you've got a nice Belgian OU there. Is there a date code? I'd guess maybe the 30's, or possibly even post-WWII. That particular OU design seems to have been quite popular in Belgium (with obvious resemblance to a Merkel) both before and after the war.

I posted an ad for a gun by P. Delahalle � Saint-Hubert, Paris above. (looks identical to the gun owned by Alan Delon below).
http://www.cornettedesaintcyr.fr/html/fi...amp;aff=&r=



Per another gun board Delahalle was a gunsmith registered in Paris in 1911. The adress of his shop was 11, rue de Rome in Paris. The full name of the society of Mr. Delahalle is "P. Delahalle A Saint-Hubert, Paris". (source : le "qui est qui de l'arme en France de 1350 � 1970 by J-J BUIGNE et P. JARLIER, this data coming itself from Maurice FUNGER).



Here is an 1911-1912 reproduction catalog for sale.



And there was this one owned by Alan Delon for sale:
73. FUSIL DE CHASSE � PERCUSSION CENTRALE, chiens ext�rieurs, deux coups, calibre 12-65, de Delahalle � Saint Hubert Paris.
Canons juxtapos�s de 68,5 cm. bande plume s�par�e. Crosse demi pistolet en noyer en partie quadrill�e de 36,5 cm. Vers 1880-1900. Fabrication li�geoise.
300 / 400 �
http://catalogue.gazette-drouot.com/pdf/...1364&cp=124

What some sleuthing & it isn't even 5 o'clock pm(Zulu). I was confused on the matter & thought we were looking @ the origin of the term Hubert(Bishop).....


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I think the topic split three ways:
1) Saint Hubert BLE 16 ga French retailed gun, clearly Belgian-made
2) A nicely made over under from Belgium. The barrels are marked "A Saint Hubert Paris" and where that might come from.
2) And the patron saint of Hunters...witness the Saint Hubert club in Paris the morphed into the French political party of hunters and fishers.

Keep up Raimey....have another coffee...it's already 4:00 PM here.

I'm ramping up Argo, but with mate as coffee seems to develop kidney stones stresses my plumbing. My hope is that Sankt Nic stops by your Zulu + 1 position.


na zdravje,

Raimey
rse

Larry,, the over/under has the 1935 date code of "N". I noticed, too, that the A Saint Hubert-------- and Belgique were applied or engraved after the barrels were blued.

Belgian barrels being marketed in Paris on a Paris gun? Say it isn't so. Reminds me of the Didier Drevet article he wrote for Saint Etienne newspaper in 1878 on his visit to the Parisian Universal Exposition (translated in the Dating Early French Shotgun line):

Without wanting to diminish the merits of the house of Leopold Bernard, one must recognize that he is operating at an advantage because of his location.

For a long time his manufactures were encourgesd and supported by the Parisian gunmakers, who needed to have a prestigious barrel from Paris in order to have the rest of the gun which was made abroad accepted.

It�s true that the beautiful movement of egos was close to being extinguished because most of the long guns which I was given to look at in the display cases of the Parisian exposition were mounted with Belgian barrels and even barrels that were decidedly mediocre.

I visited in detail two of the display cases. I will abstain from citing the name of the two exhibiters, but I picked up ours and the brand names of the barrels and I could, if necessary, justify what i�m going to say in advance.

In spite of the long guns which were in the two display cases, I only found one barrel legally proof-marked and it was from Liege.

All the others were without a brand name, and of such of those I figure that six of the barrels were Belgian made.

It�s true to say that there is not a proof house in Paris. The government has not judged it necessary to establish one because there is not a single maker of barrels in Paris. It is this state of affairs which facilitates fraud and which I brought to the attention of the Paris Exposition. One can bring in barrels from Liege which have not been proofed; One can decorate them with a proper mark/name and one can then babtise them as Paris barrels. I know very well that M. Leopold Bernard, who is careful about his reputation and who, decidedly sells very expensive products, but without submitting his barrels to a serious proof test.

But as for the gun makers who buy these barrels without a proof mark abroad why would they do it differently?

In any case it�s not legal neither for one method or another. There cannot be two laws in France, one for Paris, the other for St-Etienne.

Good stuff, Argo, thanks.

Has anyone taken one of these Belgium shotguns apart to see if there is a mark, a stamp, or initials someplace inside the action that would at least steer us in the direction of a builder's name?

The retailer had to have an invoice or mailed a check to somebody.

Daryl, I doubt that your gun is a Frenchie with Belgian barrels. I've seen too many Belgian OU's that looked pretty much like twins to that one. Plenty of Belgian-made guns (from the ground up) sold by gun shops in Paris.

Larry, of course not a French made gun . It has full Belgian proofs from 1935 and the only French marks are put on the gun after the final finishes have been applied. Really a nicely finished gun with an unusual, to me, flat {narrow] receiver , not much wider than the breech.

Narrow but deep. More or less the Merkel design with some changes, but incorporating the 3 piece forend. Seems OU's these days have gone the other direction: shallow but wide.