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John had more than one .461 Gibbs Farq, one that originated in Japan and another. The second one is in my sights........


http://www.bertramandco.com/
Booking African hunts, firearms import services

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Sidelock
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Originally Posted By: craigd
Only curious, have you come up with a rear sight idea for hunting purposes. It truly looks set up as a long range match rifle. Very nice rifle, congrats. I'd think slug the bore, take a chamber cast, and decide what to do from there.


I'm not thinking that is the rifle in question.
His rifle must be a very early style action with an action number that low.
Pictures from the OP would clear it all up.

I can maybe help you out a bit, having a 461 Gibbs myself.
Your rifle, having Metford rifling, will probably have a .461" bore and grooves almost .469-.470".
Most Gibbs 461s are tight chambered, meaning that the biggest bullet that fits a fired case will be at bore size. This makes working up a NfB load very challenging but full black and duplex loads do the trick.
Paper patched bullets can be made by sizing back .458s to around .453 and patching up to .461" if indeed you have such a chamber. That at least will get you started shooting without laying out for a new mold.
Brass can be bought from Bertram in Australia but can also be made from 500/450 No.1 or if headspaced off of the shoulder, any 500, 500/450 or 470 Nitro Express brass.
Looking forward to seeing your rifle!

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Thanks Huvius. I figured out later that it was my fault for thinking that the rifle in the link was the one discussed here. Interesting comments that you have shared about the barrel and chamber. Thanks.

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49NORTH Offline OP
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Huvius, Thanks for the info, I will probably need some help once I collect all the necessary components. I have contacted Mark Crudgington at Gibbs, he was very accommodating and provided great information. He said " it is the 41st Gibbs Farquhasson made, it is of the earliest type and conforms to most of the original patent drawings, it would have been built circa 1873-74" He went on to say that if it is stamped 47 or 48 by the barrel proof marks it will be .461 Gibbs #1. It is stamped 48.
The barrel is 25 1/4 inches long and it has two express style rear sights, front one is fixed and marked 100 the second is flip up marked 200.

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49NORTH Offline OP
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Just got Jonathan Kirton revised edition book, page 118 fig 92, is the rifle.

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Wow! That is an early one!
Would like to see some more pictures of it when you get the time.
My bet is that it will be tight chambered and a cast will show virtually no throat in the chamber. The lands running right up to the case mouth.

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49NORTH Offline OP
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I did a chamber cast on the weekend , the lands start about 1/8 inch in front of the case mouth, the bore is .466 on the lands and .468 to the grooves. I have never paper patched before so I am doing as much research as I can,currently I am thinking a .461 pure lead cast bullet with 2 wraps of 9lb 100% cotton paper,then resize to .468 on a 360grn bullet should be what I want.
Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?
I should have pictures hopefully up by this weekend.

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I would be more that happy to help with paper patching. I do a heck of a lot of it for both hunting and competitive target shooting. It is a comparatively easy way to shoot, but the best approach dependents on your ultimate goals.

Are you interested in shooting only smokeless? If so, then the bullet size you will find best is going to be groove diameter or groove diameter plus 1 thousandth. You will seat the bullet much like you would any grease groove bullet or copper coated bullet. Crimping is best if fairly light. You may be able to get away without crimping at all, if you can get the neck size of the brass just right to grip the bullet sufficiently. Belling the case mouth, if possible, will help a lot. If you do need to crimp, a taper crimp or lightly touching it up with a neck sizing die or a Full Length sizing die may be all you need to do.

If you would consider shooting black - this is where paper patching can work best. In MOST cases, the bullets are patched (and sized if necessary) to be Land Diameter. Upon ignition, they will expand into the rifling - even if made of very hard lead:tin alloy. A combination of wads and bullet lube are usually used. I can give you a run down on that, if you wish.

Bullets can be pure lead or as hard as at least 16:1. Hardness depends on application of course. Flat noses are ideal, and I find heavier is better, if your twist rate can handle it.

Done right, this is what happens.



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I’m a bit confused about the .466” bore with a .468” groove.
That’s only .001” of rifling depth.
Brent’s point about whether you want to shoot black or smokeless will get you on the right track so think of that first.

If you want to use black powder, I would suggest using a pin gauge to measure the bore. That is the easiest and most accurate way to do it.
By doing that, you know the exact size of the bullet that will chamber and the groove depth is of no consequence.
If you really do have a .466” bore, that means you can patch virtually any .458” bullet right up to that .466” with two wraps - rather convenient!
What did the case neck/mouth measure at?

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[img][img]https://i.imgur.com/TOc682E.jpg[/img][/img] [img][img]https://i.imgur.com/YQejcs5.jpg[/img][/img] [img][img]https://i.imgur.com/Am3rvx4.jpg[/img][/img]

Last edited by 49NORTH; 11/22/17 05:43 PM.
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