doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Drilling question

Still no general view picture... Are you teasing us?

Looks to be a very nice early specimen.


With kind regards,
Jani

Most interesting that Louis Kelber & the mechanic EW both contributed effort on the tube work along w/ the owner of the boxed Ks or K in a Rhombus. For that effort, one couldn't ask for anything better. Not sure on the DRGM(Gebrauchsmuster) 1116 but I seem to recall that DRGMs commenced on June 1st, 1891 and considering the voluntary proof data, this example should have been completed by 1893?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=389535

Thread on Heym's patent.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for the info. Sorry for no General view pictures. The stocks are in good shape. It has what looks like a horn buttplate in a basket weave pattern and a capped pistol grip. Under the barrel selector it has a gold tone "S" on top and a "K" on bottom. I have the gun on hold with a small down payment.I'm just trying to find out all I can before I fully commit. This will be my first Drilling and I see prices all over the place so I want to make sure this is the one I want.

The collection he bought this Drilling in also had a Remington 1894 CE 12ga with the star damascus that is in very fine shape inside and out and a Sauer drilling with 22" barrels 16x16 over what we think is 9x74 with a claw mount german scope on top. The Sauer is very clean but plain with no engraving.

R.Marshal,
The crown U is the mark for a "view" proof, which was a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions. The crown W is the mark for choked barrel( amount of choke unknown). It's curious that I didn't see a crown S, which was the mark for proof with shot, maybe it was hidden in assembling the barrel bundle. The 12 in a circle means it has a standard, for the time, 12 gauge chamber. The standard 12 gauge chamber was shorter than todays standard- 67mm(2 5/8") vs 70mm( 2 3/4"). The 13/1 is the bore diameter ahead of the chamber(18.26mm). The word "Nitro" shows the drilling was proofed in Suhl, so was likely made there or nearby. The crown G means it was proofed for a single projectile( bullet). Since it has the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter in millimeters(7.7mm), it was proofed after the 1911 improvements to the 1891 proof law. The case length should have also been shown. From time to time we see guns proofed during the transition to the new, missing the case length. The "S" under the selector is for "Schrot"( shot) and the "K" is for "Kugel"( ball or bullet). While this is a nice drilling, I would consider the other one, if I intended to hunt with it. Even though it is "plain", Sauer is a good and known name. The main reason for my opinion is that you said it has a scope mounted. To effectively use a drilling, it should have a scope. To have one mounted in the US can be an expensive proposition.
Mike

So did Karl Kormes contract different sources to have a drilling built for him to put his name on to sell? Where they built under one roof or moved from specialty to specialty? By looking at the proof marks it was built after 1911? I would love to buy the scoped drilling but he is going to hang on to it.

It was very common practice for dealers to have their guns made by someone in one of the gun making areas and either add their own name or have the maker do it. Also it was common for these guns to be "made for the trade", in more or less standard configuration, sold to a dealer, then a user; and never have any name added. This is the source of incorrectly named "Guild Guns". Larger makers often had enough "in house" workers to assemble the whole gun( but often with outside sourced specialty items, a good example being barrel blanks). Others would use some outside sources to do certain items of work, such as putting the barrel bundles together, engraving, making the stock, fitting the barrel bundles to the action, or regulating the barrels. Sometimes they sent the work to the workman, and sometimes they had the workman come to the shop. Often these workmen worked during the day in a larger factory and at night or weekend on these other jobs. The marks and initials that are not proof marks were added by these workers to ID work for payment and fix responsibility for quality of the work. This system was also used by the large makers, with their "in house" workers. I believe the gun was made in or about 1911, but I can be wrong. After about 1923, Suhl started dating their proofs, but Zella-Mehlis dated theirs much earlier. If yours had been dated, we would be sure.
Mike

K�rmes would have placed an order w/ a concern either in Suhl, Zella-Mehlis or Liege and then they more than likely applied his name. K�rmes' shop would have performed some repairs and scope mounting, etc.

The example is mixed in time w/ the proofmarks. It has an early DRGM Nr. and a voluntary proof load stamp, both which were prior to 1911. Odd why some 20 years later one would still apply the DRGM number. It is possible it could have been completed at the cusp of the rules change in 1911/1912, but not much later.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Once again thanks for the info. Does the marks and initials inside this gun offer any hints of the maker? Were these marks of craftsmen of high standards?

The DRGM might point toward a maker but it is odd to see two of the upper rung tube mechanics have their initials(LK & EW) on the same tube. Makes me wonder if it started as some calibre and was altered during the process or thru the years?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse