doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dating early 20th Century French Shotguns

That's a weird one.
I would say that the only French thing on this gun is the action.
The barrels, forend and stock are German.
Probably a WWII adventure...
WC-

You think?
It seems to me on the barrel stamps Saint-�tiennee ( S with a crown).

No, the tubeset is purely German. Is the stamp of the MF paired w/ a wreath surmounted by "Saint" a stamp of Manu-France?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Just in case anyone is interested, and I know Ted must have this, here are dates/ numbers of Regis Darne's patents. Checking patent numbers on a gun might confirm dates of SN's per the chart Gil previously posted.

I'm going to post a Didier Drevet shotgun. SN 5275: dated 1887, a complete gun , chambered for 75mm. The gun has 30" Damascus barrels and was for sale for 750 Euros. - would that I been involved in Doubleguns when it came up for sale in 2012!
1) This adds to the graph of DD historical serial numbers.
2) It also gets closer to the theorized 1889 changeover date from mm to cm, when as WC pointed out France changed from the CGS system (centimeter, gram, second) to MKS system (meter, kilogram, second).

And what's with the brown case color?

FUSIL DE CHASSE � percussion centrale, chiens ext�rieurs, deux coups, calibre 12-75 (18). Canons damas juxtapos�s de 76,5 cm de Didier Drevet. Platines grav�es " L. Chalet � Saint Etienne ". Crosse en noyer quadrill�, marqu�e sur une pi�ce de laiton aux armes couronn�es de Poncins. Dans un �tui jambon en cuir " Count de Poncins ". Fabriqu� en 1887.
N�5275 - 1887. Poids�: 3,370 Kg.
5� cat�gorie.
Adjug�: 750��
https://www.rouillac.com/fr/lot-233-79107-fusil_chasse_percussion_centrale_chiens?p=9

And I'll post this 10 gauge Didier Drevet for history's sake. I believe the SN is 3675, and is dated 1879..very difficult to make out but I believe this is in the ball park. Chambers not mentioned.
https://www.naturabuy.fr/TRES-BEAUX-FUSIL-CAL-10-DAMAS-DIDIER-DREVET-item-4124257.html






TRES BELLE PIECE CAL.10
Beaux fusil du CANNONIER DIDIER DREVET sign� sur les canons et poin�ons du cannonier DIDIER DREVET � ST. ETIENNE et marquage m�daill� en 1855
Canons DAMAS brun tabac, int�rieur brillant mais marqu�s sans gravit� vu l'�paisseur de ceux-ci
Belles signatures sur les platines MONIN Bt�. A GRENOBLE
Belles gravures avec cl�e sous pontet avec de belles volutes et beaux pomeau travaill�
Plaque de couche fer et toutes les vis sont d'origine
Tr�s beaux bois tigr�

And a question for Ted: "Albert de Veron de La Combe, neveu d'Auguste Marze, assume la direction avec Claude*3 et Henri, les fils de Jean*2. La SIFARM (soci�t� r�sultant de la fusion des anciennes manufactures BERTHON Fr�res, Francisque DARNE, DIDIER-DREVET, GEREST et RONCHARD-CIZERON) est absorb�e en 1963, en m�me temps que la c�l�bre Canonnerie Jean BREUIL. "

Did "SIFARM" (I know it was a marketing tool, not a manufacturing concern) keep records on the production of those members? if so, did Verney Caron inherit them in 1963?

Argo, are we maybe confusing Drevet shotguns with shotguns with barrels made by Drevet? Who made the rest? Seems to me your first example is actually an L. Chalet shotgun with Drevet barrels. I have no idea how many complete guns were marked Drevet, but I owned a very nice sideplated boxlock 16ga (wish I'd kept it!) that was marked Drevet. If the gun doesn't wear a "maker's" name--which, as we know, is in fact often only the name of the gun shop/gunsmith/dealer who sold it--then it seems to me we might refer to it as a guild gun (or no name gun) with barrels by Drevet, Breuil, whatever. But if it does wear a maker's name, it seems to me that's what we should use--while of course adding the name of the barrel maker to provide additional information.

Argo,
I haven't rifled through some of this stuff in ages, but, here is a tantalizing page just for you:



I will be honest, I have no idea what became of the records from SIFARM. I do know that there was a bit of a manufacturer's bloodbath in 1955, that caught Charlin, F. Darne, Peugeot, and perhaps a few others, with bankrupcy and associated sales of equipment and inventory to other manufacturers that year.

At the time I was involved in importation and in St. Etienne, I was not terribly interested in any other manufacturers. I approached Verney Carron ownership, and they seemed uninterested in exporting at that time. Richard Levi, at G. Granger, told me he would build for me a fine gun, but, he had all the work he could do right in St. Etienne. Demaas took me up, but, the gun were so European in looks and styling, with stepped cheekpieces, swivels on everything, and a dearth of American standard cartridge chamberings, I had zero interest from people in the states.

I can say, I'm glad I did it, and wouldn't have changed much about the experience. But, it was a business, and time to study minutia of the history of the manufacture of other companies simply wasn't there for me. I am a semi-serious bicyclist, as is Geoffroy Gournet, and I would have loved to delve into the history of bicycle companies in St. Etienne, but, I just couldn't.
I've said this before, but, anything I learned about other gunmaking concerns was incidental to trying to learn something about Darne guns, first, and various clones, second. I never read, wrote or spoke French beyond about a 6th grade level, and, that was actually enough to do what I was doing, at the time, but, didn't give me enough to do research, at a serious level. I like to say I was able to say "I'm hungry" and to swear at a waiter.

I am impressed with what you are able to put together with a computer and French language skills. Keep it up. I'll help when and where I can.


Best,
Ted

Larry, you're right, Didier Drevett made barrels and also some entire guns. But both were numbered and dated and can help build the graph of logical dates of all DD SN's and by consequence, identify other markers such as the changeover from mm to cm and back again. (I assumed the "L.Chalet" name above was the seller because there is no other such name on the gun).

I think at some point I'm going to have to ask for help from Wife's cousins in Saint Chamond. I haven't done this for a variety of reasons but will when I get home. They must know where if any records of SIFARM and others are held in Saint Etienne.

I also need to join www.naturabuy.fr so I can ask some questions; I tried to do so in order to ask questions about the above 1879 gun - but the site won't allow it from where my computer is currently located.

Finally I need to contact Neltir on www.Passionlachasse.fr and ask him some serious questions...In the past wife wouldn't edit my French, but since we're physically separated for two months she might be feeling sorry for me or something. I'm thinking that If I put our list of Drevet SN's on Passionlachasse, the French will bomb in with dozens more serial numbers and Neltir might even know where are the records.

And Ted super-interesting chart. It's crossed my mind to try to find every patent issued to a Saint Etienne gun maker from 1880-1920 and publish them here to help date our guns.