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This happens plenty of times:
Not to me but other dealers too:

Guy ask what is your best price and I say to him I will listen to your best offer.

That ends that conversation, always afraid to make a real offer
We know in the trade that they are not serious

John


John Boyd
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Gun shows are the worst for this. You MUST price an item with room in it, knowing that no one is going to pay asking price, if they buy at all.


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We've had this conversation before. Customers are the worst part about retail sales. The John Clees' character, a small hotel owner on the English coast in the Brit Com Fawlty Towers, complained that the guests interfered with his ability to run the hotel. Gil

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John periodically brings this up. It has been his m.o. for years. For someone in the retail business, you sure have a lot of complaints about your potential customers, John.

Are you only interested in making conversation with people who spend money in your business? I was raised in a retail business. My Dad supported our family by operating a very large country store, a general merchandise type of business. I worked in there as a kid, and a teenager, and my Dad drilled into me that the customer is always right. I did not agree with him at the time, but understand now what he meant. He truly enjoyed making small talk with those who came in, even if they only bought a Coke and a pack of peanuts. He never treated tire-kickers any differently than the best customers he had. And, he would have never gone on the internet to XXXXX about them.

You have done no less than convince me I would likely not enjoy browsing in your shop. I might aggravate you if I didn't spend a wad.

SRH


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I'm pretty sure most people with a job have levels of discretionary spending.
Once you cross a certain income threshold, I don't think men do much consulting with the missus'.

Tire kicking is all part of the process, a retailer needs to ask good, clarifying questions, but ultimately, let the customer BUY don't keep trying to Sell them.

And, FWIW, vent here, but NEVER in front of the prospect.


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John, you could tell your customer, "Bring in your wife and we'll dicker!" customers really love that approach.

Steve


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CZ, are we not prospects for someone who advertises on DGJ?

SRH


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Many shoppers have very little intention of buying. It's money, it's lack of knowledge or wrong information they are married to. Some don't even know half of what they think they do. It's entertainment to them. An education. Doesn't bother me. Information can be shared and I don't mind because I learn things while listening to others. Sometimes I learn I know a lot more than they do and sometimes I learn I need to learn more. You can learn as a buyer or seller if you keep your mind open as I have learned several times.

Many years ago I had a friend who was a very serious collector of Winchester model 70's. At the time I had close to 50 and his collection made mine look like nothing. He was looking at mine for upgrades or missing items. Nothing met his needs so he was a buyer who bought nothing. He was collection in two directions, as high condition as he could get and one of every variation which becomes kind of the quest for the holy grail. His holy grail was a combination of caliber and features that they made about 250 total of. As you know rifle shooters are known to rebarrel or rechamber guns if they want to. This caliber was a bit of a dog but had been replaced by one of the sexy semi wildcats in the day. So many of that 250 were gone. He figured there might be 50 total left. I learned from him I was a semi educated collector but also how to think and what to look for.

I walked into a small gun shop in Delaware that had the holy grail sitting on the rack. Price was very low. Condition extremely good. Without smacking my lips I asked to examine the gun. Shop owner told me the typical one owner story which probably was true. Shot very little because Delaware is a shotgun only deer state. Mentioned if it was a more popular cartridge it be worth more. That caliber was not even listed in his bluebook. All information he knew which was honest but mostly wrong. If I had not been previously educated I would have put it back on the rack instead of handing over the $325.00 price after dickering him down from $350.00. You got to dicker on principle sometimes.

I sold it a few years later to my educational friend for over five grand after a short period dickering. Form must be observed. It was his holy grail and both of us would never owned it unless he took time to educate me things I thought I knew but did not. He died a couple years later and I guess his collection was quietly sold off. Never heard of that gun hitting the open market or even the rest of his collection. Who knows his widow might still own everything I've in NJ still. Wonder if she would take $325.00 for it today. I doubt she hunts deer.

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I'd love to buy one of your beautiful Arrieta's John but I just don't do enough upland game hunting anymore to justify the purchase.

Heck my double sees more deer hunting than upland game hunting anymore.

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May God bless America and those who defend her.
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I don't particularly care for small talk with a seller. I really do believe that there are serious and non serious sellers. I'll wait patiently for a busy but serious seller. If my instincts tell me I'm was 'sized up' and stuck on the B list, there wouldn't be any possible deal no matter how interesting something looked a few minutes earlier. There are just way too many options for buyers.

I think, just to see what happens, a seller might price everything at an honest bottom line, and put up a little sign that explains, no dickering adjusted to best price. It may mean not squeezing a few extra bucks out one or two items, but I think the goal is to scare away tire kickers.

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Mr Boyd is frustrated by chicken$hit buyers who give their wives oversight of their spending habits as the excuse for them not buying a gun; however, if guns were priced right thered be fewer tire kickers. The SxS market has been soft for several years but asking prices rarely reflect that as evidenced by the long term listings on the auction sites that keep being relisted. On Gunsinternational there are roughly 800 British guns for sale and 600 or so Parkers, just to give two examples. Over-supply maybe? How many SxS shooters are there? Fewer and fewer given the aging population and mediocre participation in previously well-attended vintager shoots. If dealers want to stimulate the market they need to price their guns right.

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Why do you give a hoot so much, Stan?? There is so much worse BS on this site that John's attempt to commiserate here seems pretty tame. If he wants to vent here, I don't see it as all that big of a deal, no problem. If the administrator here doesn't approve, he could easily put a stop to John's complaints. I don't see where it's our job...or yours, to police the content of the threads here, including this one. Sorry, but I don't agree with your sentiment this time.


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John, one of my principles of negotiation is to always try to have the other party throw out the first number. That way I know right off whether we'll be able to deal or not.

Best answer to the 'what's your best price' gambit is to act offended when someone counters and tell them 'but you've already asked for my best price and I gave it to you'...Geo

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Originally Posted By: buzz
Why do you give a hoot so much, Stan?? There is so much worse BS on this site that John's attempt to commiserate here seems pretty tame. If he wants to vent here, I don't see it as all that big of a deal, no problem. If the administrator here doesn't approve, he could easily put a stop to John's complaints. I don't see where it's our job...or yours, to police the content of the threads here, including this one. Sorry, but I don't agree with your sentiment this time.


I'm not wanting to police anything, buzz. You read that into my post somewhere or another. Nowhere did I say that John should not be allowed to say what he thinks ....... just as I should be allowed to disagree with his posting. I just wanted to point out that John does this periodically. He seems to have a tendency to badmouth his potential customers. No other advertiser on DGJ does so. Do the threads to which I provided links not show that tendency? If you agree with that type of complaining I can see your taking exception to my posting.

I completely understand if you don't agree with me, buzz, but show me where I attempted to police the content of the thread, or even remotely suggested John not be allowed to post it here.

SRH


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Stan: Showing us (3) three threads of similar content are clearly an effort to show evidence of habitual complaining and all with a goal to stop this man from expressing his opinions. If you don't want to call that an effort to "police", well, then so be it. Or, maybe you are just telling John to shut the fu*k up?

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Nothing personal, Buzz,
but John needs Us a hell of a lot more than we need him.
Kvetching here about no-good customers guarantees people that are curious about his wares don't call.

We know what he thinks of us already.

I was just trying to be polite in my earlier post.

But now that the cat is out of the bag, well, John's laments on an open forum hurt his business.

There's no conspiracy to censor him, but three is certainly a well intended wish that he would stop, if only for his own business' sake.


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I clearly stepped on somebody's toes. Be that as it may, neither of your assumptions are correct, buzz. While you're absolutely right that I was, definitely, pointing out John's tendencies to complain about his clientele, I was NOT suggesting he be censored, or the other uncalled for crude expression you used in your anger.

Sorry I rubbed you so wrong. That was not my intention at all.

SRH

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I'm not angry Stan. You are the one angry as evidenced by your willingness to prove John habitually complains, his MO here, I believe you called it, which clearly appears to bother you. Indeed, I don't care if John complains here. And really, I don't care if you care that he does. But you are the angry one, not me. And yes, I guess we disagree here. I have purchased from John and would do so again despite the nature of his threads on this forum. It also appears others purchase items they want from John too despite the content of his threads. If you review his threads in the 'for sale' section you will see that's true. And now I bid farewell to this ridiculous bantering back and forth.


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We'll agree to disagree on this one, buzz. I respect your opinions, and appreciate your being man enough to voice them. I'm not angry either. I was offering my opinion on John's actions, and tendencies in this regard, but no anger was present. My efforts in linking the three older examples were merely for evidence. In all truth, it's nowhere near important enough to get me angry ........ but it is important enough to me to have taken a few minutes to point it out.

I'm done with it, too, and would not have even posted again on this thread had you not confronted me. I wish you well, and hope you have a great year chasing quail.

All my best, SRH


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Stan:

I have seen many folks here go after dealers about thay are crooks, fall in the same relm of used car dealers, cheats, etc,
But say that I guess with you that is ok, say something the other way and that becomes an issue with you.

John


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Different groups/regions of peoples differ in how they look at buying/selling. Something that was instilled in my upbringing was to never set a price on another mans goods. Let him set a price and take it or walk away. I am slowly changing as the internet has brought the regions all together.

My $.02,

John

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Unfortunate thread. John and Stan are both good guys...Geo

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I can definitely relate to the sentiments expressed in the original post. I own a small "pop" pawnshop (not even Mom & Pop) and sell guns as part of that. Let's just say that gun shoppers are an interesting lot. I'm sure the pawnshop experience is vastly different than the leather chair and bookshelf gun boutique scene, but . . .

The genuine gun guy buyers are fine. Many are salt of the Earth types. Some you would be happy to restart a nation with. They account for about 10-15 percent of folks at the gun counter and a HUGE part of your gun sales. These are the "Super Gun Owners" that the national media expresses concern about, the ones that own half the guns in America. A few, the black-gun erector-set enthusiats especially, make you shake your head from time to time but you're happy for customers who spend money. If you're smart you treat these guys well.

Another 15 percent or so are simply legitimate consumers who are interested in making a one-time or occasional purchase but place no more emotional or spiritual attachment to the product they're buying. THey'll buy a gun and you may never see them again, or only rarely. They're easy. You do your best to try to serve them and encourage them to increase their interest.

Maybe 5 percent are up to no good. They're either criminals or criminal want-to-be types. You do good if you can run them out as quickly as possible without drama. You do not want to sell them a gun.

Another 5 percent think they're slick. They're trying to pull one over on you somehow. They're easy to spot. They're actually sort of fun to play with.

The simply curious make up another 10 percent or so. They don't come into the pawnshop to look at guns but so long as they're there they'll peek, ask a few questions and maybe touch something. You spend a few minutes being hospitable but don't expect anything from them.

Probably two-thirds of the people who approach my gun counter are a total waste of time. They don't have any money and aren't likely to have any money any time soon. There is no chance whatsoever that they will make a purchase. You know it and they know it but they pretend it's not the case. You pretend that there's hope. If they propose a trade they expect you to give them 125 percent of retail for their gun and want to buy yours for 30 percent off. Many cruise the gun counter for entertainment. It's fun for them to keep track of everybody's inventory and handle anything new. They'll hang out at the counter and hold court. Some will regale you with stories of guns they own, guns they used to own, guns their brother-in-law, uncle or hunting buddy owns. They'll relive their hunts. They'll tell you about the guns they should have bought. They are poseurs. They'll expound at length on topics they know nothing about. You hold your tongue and check your facial expressions as you catch them again and again in obvious lies, falsehoods and erroneous opinions. They'll play "stump the clerk" trying to draw you into to taking a position on some minutia that they hold a firm opinion about and then tell you why you're wrong. They are forever in search of unicorns -- oddball calibers, truly unique firearms and accessories that one person in 100,000 might desire, secure in the confidence that you won't have hen's teeth in stock (nothing is more fun than producing the elusive unicorn and watching them squirm while coming up with an excuse why they're not ready to buy today). Smile and play along. It's hard though when it comes to prices. They'll low-ball you and accuse you of profiteering, oblivious to the slim margins and the high cost of business. These people -- again, probably at least half the people who approach the gun counter -- suck the life out of you. They are there to use you and give nothing back. They are the reason that so many people in the gun business are humorless and surly.

Add to this the whole Internet thing and, well, gun sales ain't all it's cracked up to be. Nothing like spending a half hour showing a guy handguns only to get a transfer for him from Grab-a-Gun a week later for the same gun you showed him. You can't blame him when you see that his Internet price was lower than your supposed wholesale dealer's cost.

So, yeah, I know where the OP is coming from. Fortunately, there's enough honest, decent people among the gun community to make it mostly worthwhile. There sure are a lot of people who try your patience, however. Each of you is free to decide for yourself where you fit in.

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I had a cousin who sold farm real estate. He explained to me that 90% of his sales were to 3-5% of his customers but the other 92-95% were all profit to him. His point was that he give the little fellow a little time because he knew a few would pan out but he knew who bought almost all of his land. Either a man can get a million dollars or he can't he would say. Same with guns, either a man has the money, interest and desire to buy or he does not.

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Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher
....I'm sure the pawnshop experience is vastly different than the leather chair and bookshelf gun boutique scene, but . . .

The genuine gun guy buyers are fine. Many are salt of the Earth types. Some you would be happy to restart a nation with. They account for about 10-15 percent of folks at the gun counter and a HUGE part of your gun sales....

....Another 15 percent or so are simply legitimate consumers who are interested in making a one-time or occasional purchase....

...Probably two-thirds of the people who approach my gun counter are a total waste of time....

....So, yeah, I know where the OP is coming from....

....Each of you is free to decide for yourself where you fit in.

I think you did a great run down of doing business, and I appreciate the time you took to explain it. It looks like, unless the type of customer that approaches the counter, boutique or not, can be changed, it's just a numbers game. A buyer might not have to be concerned how they categorize themselves, but the seller might consider that foot traffic is the only way to meet the numbers whether it's at a show or showroom or online.

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I know when I go into a gun store, weather it be used, or new guns, if it's a gun I'm interested in I ask to see it, check out the gun, look at the price tag, and until recently either hand it back with a thinks, or buy the gun, I never asked if there was a better price than what was listed. I have no idea how many guns I walked away from, but could have walked away with had I asked, on that same token I know I have gotten taken because my wants were greater than my common sense.

To the OP when I ask (now) what is the best price I expect an answer not a question!

The problem with "make me an offer" is if you low ball the guy he is going to take offence, and if you don't you may take it in the shorts.

Recently I bought a Beretta 686 silver pigeon 20 ga, as I looked at the gun I noticed a scratch on the pistol grip, something that should not be there on an $1800 gun, I pointed it out and put the gun away, talked with the clerk for a few minutes, and it occurred to me to ask about price and scratch, turns out that scratch saved me $170.00, which speaks a little toward that very low profit margin on guns, just the other day I bought a new Franchi Highlander, I am sure it sat in the store for years considering they stopped making them years ago, as I was filling out the paperwork and looking at the gun I noticed bumps, and scratches on the stock, again something that should not be on a new gun, that one saved me $80.00, so from now on I will at least try on the price, and not just take the listed price at gospel.

TM

Edited to add: SO I guess I'm the guy who goes up to the gun counter, talks with clerk, looks at guns and puts them back, not because I don't want to buy a gun, not because I want to waist the clerks time, but because the price listed is greater than I am willing to spend on said gun, perhaps those clerks wasting their precious time talking with wannabes could ask something like "what will it take for you to take that little beauty home with you?"...just sayin.

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Ok, now let's play 'types of dealers'. Turnabout is fair play.

1. The volume discount dealer. We had one in my state that did a LOT of business until the founder died and his kids took it over. No service, occasional rudeness (perhaps because of people expecting service, see 'types of buyers' above), but great selection and the best prices for far and wide. You need to do your homework, know what you want before your visit, and expect to trade service (and even civility) for the best price, sometimes by a wide margin. I got to know these folks simply because I did a lot of business with them and we developed a rapport. They knew I always spent money, sometimes quite a bit.

2. The 'full service' dealer but with no value added. Large sporting good stores with inexperienced people running the vast gun counter with retail prices. You know who I mean.

3. Local 'gun museum'. Home of the glass counter with a large rack of inaccessible 'display' guns that never change. Small inventory of common stuff, usually from the Shot Show. Vast rack of clunkers, usually classic American repeaters but all with weird modifications that devalue them to 1/3 of the tagged price.

4. Pawn shops. A very mixed bag. Usually a clip fed bolt shotgun, a Model 12 with no finish left, and a 'Topper' complete the selection. However, we have a shop locally here that has an active gun counter and they are willing to do just about anything you might ask as far as ordering stuff and even discount the products to a reasonable price. They understand they can't stock the shelves like the big store in the next town, but they still want to compete. Good operation in general, if you don't mind the rows and rows of obsolete electronic garbage.

5. Jaqua's. In a class by themselves. Mentioned by name because they simply do it right.

6. Jaqua's wannabes. Here we lump the rest of the 'good guys'. Actual gun stores with both new and used inventory, that cater to shooters. They likely have an internet presence.

7. Gun club with pro shop. Usually the home of full retail. They have their audience, it just isn't me.

8. Shooting buddy with FFL. A vanishing breed. I did business with a couple of them, to our mutual benefit. Very handy for internet transfers, but generally leveraged out by the wholesalers. Time was when average Joe could simply call OSHI and get a reasonable price to pass on.

9. Internet picture show guys. Sometimes very high condition and uncommon high grade guns. A specialty niche. They fill a need if you can bring yourself to shell out serious dough based just on pictures and reputation.

Certainly I've missed some 'dealer types'.

Feel free to add to the list.


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There's one online dealer that I've bought a gun from who upfront on his inventory page states these are firm prices and are not negotiable. For discount of X%, buy two guns. I felt his asking price was in line for the gun I bought from him. Gil

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That's how it should be, GLS.

If you expect to find an adversarial relationship going in that's likely how it will be.

Approach it as two sides looking for agreement and things might go better. Might.

I only swore off one vendor. No names, I've told the story here before. He tried to 'double close' me. That won't play. It's an old car dealer ploy.


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I think part of the problem, if it is actually a problem, for a lot of the guys on this board is that we often know more about the specific gun we are looking for than do the dealers. Sometimes I am looking for a specific configuration and condition level, so I either ask a lot of questions or examine the gun closely, or both. If it doesn't meet my criteria, I pass on it. If it's close to what I want, I'll make an offer, maybe buy or not depending on seller's response. That doesn't make me a tire kicker. I know what I want.

In other cases, there are those targets of opportunity that pop up from time to time and grab my attention. If I'm looking for a 20 ga Parker and stumble across an Elsie Crown Grade, I'm interested. Last time that happened, I bought the Crown after some back and forth. Other times I have walked away without making an offer. That does not make me a tire kicker, either. Retail is retail, and you have to work with the customers.

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I have to agree with Stan on this, if I were a retail merchant I certainly wouldn't be complaining about my customer base in public. It's the business you chose, deal with it or move on.


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I would point out too that many people browse until a gun strikes their fancy. As a double gun lover, I walk through many local shops but don't buy anything ad their doubles are not what I'm looking for. I'm hoping for the holy grail type of situation KY mentioned above


And I second the learning aspect. I've had the opportunity a couple of times of browsing a real double gun shop. I try not to take up much of the proprietors time, but I always walked away having learned something, or gotten to see first hand a type of gun that I had only read about before. And those proprietors who took the time to talk and educate me are the very first who I will return too when I have the many thousands of $$ for my ultimate purchase. Maybe 5 years down the road, but I remember who to go to!


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Quote:
I try not to take up much of the proprietors time, but I always walked away having learned something,

That's why I miss Ivory Beads. When Jim and Jerry were in business in So Cal, they had a very large conference table in their showroom, with chairs and fresh (usually) coffee. We always made it a point to stop in there on our way back into town from hunting trips. Grab a cup of coffee and some BS'ing about shotguns. There were usually a few reprobates in there, sometimes serious customers, and always some interesting guns either in inventory or customer guns sitting on the table. I learned a lot from that group, and even bought a few guns that I was not even shopping for. Great shop, great attitude. I miss those guys.

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Originally Posted By: arrieta2
Stan:

I have seen many folks here go after dealers about thay are crooks, fall in the same relm of used car dealers, cheats, etc,
But say that I guess with you that is ok, say something the other way and that becomes an issue with you.

John


No, John, that's not alright with me. No one should be badmouthed when they can't defend themselves. Have you ever known of me to do that?

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on the matter of "Making an Offer" this happened to me many year ago which you will definitely see from the price mentioned. I was at a gun show in Nashville TN back when the TN Gun Collectors Association ran a great show, don't know if they even exist anymore but haven't sponsored a show in years. Passed by a dealers table whom I knew well & had bought a gun or so from previously & who also new I had a penchant for Lefevers. He told me I've got a gun here wih your name on it. He habded it over for me to look at, was an H grade LAC in geat mechanical condition but most finish gone.
No rust pitting or anything of the sort, just blue/browning & case colors bare. Price tag on it said $300.00. I told the gentleman that it appeared it would be a very good shooter, but not really a collectible & I couldn't see that kind of money for it. His response was "How much Would you Offer & Not Back Up".
I told him I would probably hurt his feelings if I made an offer, he replied "Try Me". I took him at his word & said $100.00. He said would you be happy with it for that, I said yes & he said its yours. It had 28" "Best London Twist barrels & turned out to have 1/4 choke in each barrel, most open chokes I have bought in a Lever & a weight of about 7 lbs. It is an excellent "Shooter" so am still happy with that urchaes, though I came within a hairs width of not making that offer as it was so low ball to the marked price, one just never knows until you try. Generally speaking a seller can only come down from a listed price, while a buyer can only go up from an initial offer. When I made my initial offer on this one I was actually counting on a bit of "Wiggle Room", but he took it with no further ado.


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After I have spent the sellers time I have no problem making an offer. I have made offers on new cars, real estate and such. What I am trying to say is that the guy will not ever come back to make an offer about the gun. You say what is your offer and they clam up.

Do you really think he is a real buyer if he say he likes the gun but will not make an offer when you ask him for it?

John


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John, only experience will tell a buyer that, sometimes, a ridiculously low offer will buy a gun. His loss, no one's gain, but he will learn with time.

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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
Ok, now let's play 'types of dealers'. Turnabout is fair play . . .


You're too generous. There's plenty of gun shops that are worthy of much more negative descriptions.

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Pal of mine is a notorious lowballer.

His motto:

'At least now I'll know what he wants for it'.


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I'm convinced that if I priced dollar bills for 80 cents, a lot of guys would walk away if I wouldn't come down to 60 cents. Some guys are simply incapable of paying sticker price. They may not have a clue whether the price is fair or not. They don't care. All that matters to them is that they get the seller to budge. Many of them would gladly buy dollar bills for $1.10 if they first talked the seller down from $1.40 (which is essentially what happens in so many pawnshops/gunshops/gun shows where the seller marks up his price to accommodate negotiations).

I may be a sucker but if a guy has something for sale that I want and his price is fair, I'll generally pay his price even if I suspect I might be able to get it a bit cheaper. I know what it takes to try to make a living operating a business and I want to see people succeed. This is more true the closer I am to the seller and the more I like him. "Good friends" pay retail, I say. I've never understood the thinking that says "you're my friend so you should give me a break". I translate that to "You're my friend so I should get to take food off your table." In the great scheme of things I can probably afford whatever discount I would receive at least as much as the seller can afford to give the discount. Now, if his price is actually too high, that's a different story.

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I'm curious if every communication from a potential buyer implies a commitment to buy something. I'll confess that browsing online auctions and inventories has become a pastime and a major means of educating myself on double guns. I see lot's of guns that look interesting but whose descriptions lack basic information like weight, chokes, and stock dimensions. Is it wasting a seller's time to ask for that kind of info without having made a prior decision to buy the gun? It's not a rhetorical question. I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions.

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It's a question, not a contract.
The prospect has every right to ask questions without the expectation of purchase.
It's a spectrum between the Walter Mitty's and the real patrons.
Some people have no confidence, so they ask endless questions everywhere across the web before they buy. And some of them spend great sums after they become comfortable in their decision.
Some are bored geezers that will always have an excuse to not buy.

It's their hobby, tire kicking. And they are pests.

These are the guys whining about $300.00 transactions, and having to get permission. You gotta be nice, but they need to get a clue. Time is money, and I don't have all day to reminisce before you buy a $2.00 bag of patches.
Imagine what you go through with half a subdivision full of spec houses at 300-400k A POP.

You ask qualifying questions and decide if they can buy or not. If not, you decide if Not right now is Never, or not this month.
Some people just like to tour new houses.
It's not a crime to dream and aspire.

If a gun peddler is posting vague or incomplete ads, in this day and age, He's making his job harder, and wasting everyone's time.


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Originally Posted By: eeb
Mr Boyd is frustrated by chicken$hit buyers who give their wives oversight of their spending habits as the excuse for them not buying a gun; however, if guns were priced right thered be fewer tire kickers. The SxS market has been soft for several years but asking prices rarely reflect that as evidenced by the long term listings on the auction sites that keep being relisted. On Gunsinternational there are roughly 800 British guns for sale and 600 or so Parkers, just to give two examples. Over-supply maybe? How many SxS shooters are there? Fewer and fewer given the aging population and mediocre participation in previously well-attended vintager shoots. If dealers want to stimulate the market they need to price their guns right.


Certainly an element to consider. Remember Father Guido Sarduci? 5 minute university? Economics - supply and demand

The discussion in the stock market thread pretty much covered it all


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Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
....If a gun peddler is posting vague or incomplete ads, in this day and age, He's making his job harder, and wasting everyone's time.

Or, it could be intentional to trigger potential buyers to contact the seller. I think in this day and age, a seller probably has endless stats on how their final paying internet customer got to them. Me, I prefer complete up front, but I have noticed some sellers of other things have preset responses that probably require minimal time, but initiate the chance to suck 'em in.

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Stan and I are good friends, but that doesn't matter here on this. I agree with him 100% about John's complaining about the known foibles of the fine gun trade. It's endemic to the business.

Instead of acting like you deserve better, try swallowing your pride and just be nice to the great unwashed who waste your time on occasion, rather than coming here to tell us all how bad you have it. It will pay off in the long run.
JR


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I'm just not a "hagler'. I'm no good at it; get skinned every time I try. Now, I just explain I don't haggle and ask for his best price. It's either right or it's not, simple as that. Might lose a little some time but when I walk away with something I know I was happy or I wouldn't have bought it.

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After a 30 plus year career in sales & marketing, where my customers were retailers, I can tell you the successful ones don't think the way John does. The truth is, you never know who is going to turn into a great customer. And I'm not saying it's not hard. But it's the profession John choose and coming here to complain is remarkably unprofessional.

I noted in one response, John defended his comments by suggesting this forum is filled with people denigrating gun dealers as crooks and we all sit quietly by without protesting that. I've been on here for a number of years now and I can't remember any posts like that. Maybe a few slipped by me but it would have been an uncommon post.

People here occasionally note the incompetence of the gun room staff at places like Cabelas, but that's a different issue and one that often works on our members' favour as they sometimes buy a gun that was not priced properly.

I've had one interaction with John. I inquired about a smaller item he had listed here, less than $50. I got a pretty curt response that he doesn't ship international. Boom, conversation over. Had he responded a little differently than just cutting me off he would have heard that I would be asking him to ship to an address in Texas.

As it stands, I have choices in the marketplace. As a result of that brief exchange and his complaints here, I'll choose not to send any business here. I don't buy a ton of guns but I'm in the midst of negotiating on three right now, none of them bottom feeder guns and one was featured in a DGJ article. I'll never buy a gun from John.


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Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself.

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I hesitated to chime in on this, but what the heck.

I can understand Johns point of view. At the same time I concur with the sentiment reflects a failure to live with an unfortunate reality of retail. A reality that frustrates John and I can understand why, especially in this world of emails and phone calls that can absorb a good bit of time.

I can accept it bothers John and not take offence at his bother. I doubt it does him much good to let it get to him. Further I can see why some interpret his remarks as attacks. I do not feel attacked

This is one of those topics that hits nerves as it has before.

I have done business with John and been happy with the transaction. If he has something I need, I will again.


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Originally Posted By: canvasback
.


I've had one interaction with John. I inquired about a smaller item he had listed here, less than $50. I got a pretty curt response that he doesn't ship international. Boom, conversation over. Had he responded a little differently than just cutting me off he would have heard that I would be asking him to ship to an address in Texas


I've never had business with John, so can't speak to that, I do ship internationally, if I am shipping to Canada the first question I ask is "do you know anyone in the states that's close to you so I can ship to them and save you some money" that's how I handle it, not real complicated.

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I've also done business with John Boyd and it has always been a complete pleasure. I don't buy many expensive guns, but if I do I will not hesitate to call on him. However I'll be very careful not to waste his time...Geo

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When I was a teenager I worked at a grocery store through most of my high school years. During my senior year I decided I wanted to look at used Corvettes. I answered an ad for a 1956 Corvette. When I showed up the seller immediately decided I was just a tire kicker and proceeded to treat me like crap. After looking at the car as best as I could with Mr. Anal Sphinctermuscle breathing down my neck, he finally asked me in a belligerent manner Well are you going to buy it or not? You shouldve seen his eyes open wide when I pulled a big wad of cash from my pocket. Right in front of him I counted out his asking price and then said Id love to buy this Corvette, but not from you! and I turned around and walked away.

John, I wonder how many sales youve lost because of a bad attitude.

Steve


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Tmair:
Not once did you say you had a US address. If you would have I would have shipped.

John


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Originally Posted By: arrieta2
Tmair:
Not once did you say you had a US address. If you would have I would have shipped.

John


Still not paying attention to your customers, John. That was canvasback's statement, not TMair's.

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So I hesitated to weigh in on this with my two cents worth since its not even worth that!! I am a hunter, shooter, collector. I frequent gun shops, pawn shops, internet sites, gun shows and dealers. I am sure there are times that I have frustrated the bejeebers out of some of them. I have asked for a bottom dollar price and if it is to far from what I think its worth I walk away. May frustrate the seller but dont intend to. I also set up occasionally at gun shows and have the same thing happen to me, it is what it is. You never know when the right person will come along and fall in love with whatever you are selling, as I have done that before and paid the asking price. I get that John may get frustrated as we all do in our chosen vocation. I am in large account sales/account management and there are times Im frustrated w/my customers. Heck, we joke (amonst my colleagues) that it would be a great job if it wasnt for the customers!! Bottom line is you never know when that majic is going to happen and your going to make that sale!!


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Originally Posted By: arrieta2
Tmair:
Not once did you say you had a US address. If you would have I would have shipped.

John


Yeah, wasn't me, had it been I would have looked at the POR where the price was supposed to be and moved on.

TM

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Originally Posted By: arrieta2
Tmair:
Not once did you say you had a US address. If you would have I would have shipped.

John


While you have me mixed up with TMair, yup, that's correct. I never did say it. I didn't say it because I felt you had treated me poorly in your abrupt dismissal of me as a potential customer as soon as you realized or remembered I live in Canada. But I'm just one person and that's just one incident.

I'm still curious about all the times members here have called gun dealers "crooks". Is it just me that has missed those threads and posts? Does anyone else think it's fair or reasonable that John defends his complaining about his customers based on the idea that we regularly call gun dealers "crooks" and no one defends the dealers?


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Originally Posted By: Stan
Originally Posted By: arrieta2
Tmair:
Not once did you say you had a US address. If you would have I would have shipped.

John


Still not paying attention to your customers, John. That was canvasback's statement, not TMair's.

SRH


Never interrupt your opponent when he is making a mistake.


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Originally Posted By: arrieta2
This happens plenty of times:
Not to me but other dealers too:

Guy ask what is your best price and I say to him I will listen to your best offer.

That ends that conversation, always afraid to make a real offer
We know in the trade that they are not serious

John



I know what the fair market value is. I ask if the gun is consignment or owned by the seller. Based on that knowledge I make reasonable offer which will not insult the seller. If that is rejected I will follow with what in CASH what will you accept? One must keep in mind is that I do not pay for mistakes of others.

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I did not get read all the posts looks like it did get off track but I think some gun dealers ,jewelry salesman think the customer is the enemy. Some are good enough that they convert the customer into a sale.
I see dealers all the time that say NO TIRE KICKERS ! To me this means buyer beware !!especially if there is no inspections, no return !tells me to RUN!!!!!
I am sure some are legitimate dealers that do this but usually I think they are hiding something.
John I understand your concerns but it is part of dealing with the public..... try to be patient write down all the crazy stuff they say and we will combine stories one Friday over beer maybe write a book.... It will read " You Can't Make This Stuff Up"
Monty


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Originally Posted By: Jagermeister

I know what the fair market value is. I ask if the gun is consignment or owned by the seller. Based on that knowledge I make reasonable offer which will not insult the seller. If that is rejected I will follow with what in CASH what will you accept? One must keep in mind is that I do not pay for mistakes of others.


I thought you just rented guns ?

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Originally Posted By: Stan
John periodically brings this up. It has been his m.o. for years. For someone in the retail business, you sure have a lot of complaints about your potential customers, John.

Are you only interested in making conversation with people who spend money in your business? I was raised in a retail business. My Dad supported our family by operating a very large country store, a general merchandise type of business. I worked in there as a kid, and a teenager, and my Dad drilled into me that the customer is always right. I did not agree with him at the time, but understand now what he meant. He truly enjoyed making small talk with those who came in, even if they only bought a Coke and a pack of peanuts. He never treated tire-kickers any differently than the best customers he had. And, he would have never gone on the internet to XXXXX about them.

You have done no less than convince me I would likely not enjoy browsing in your shop. I might aggravate you if I didn't spend a wad.

SRH


In our culture the concept "the customer is always right" does not exist especially in regulated business activities which with paperwork gun selling business is. Whoever coined that stupid phrase probably sold cheap "pots and pans,...." Sure, if one sells inexpensive trinkets and such.....We believe the customer is always a customer and must be treated with respect, dignity and kindness. We expect the customer to return the same.

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Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
Originally Posted By: Stan
John periodically brings this up. It has been his m.o. for years. For someone in the retail business, you sure have a lot of complaints about your potential customers, John.

Are you only interested in making conversation with people who spend money in your business? I was raised in a retail business. My Dad supported our family by operating a very large country store, a general merchandise type of business. I worked in there as a kid, and a teenager, and my Dad drilled into me that the customer is always right. I did not agree with him at the time, but understand now what he meant. He truly enjoyed making small talk with those who came in, even if they only bought a Coke and a pack of peanuts. He never treated tire-kickers any differently than the best customers he had. And, he would have never gone on the internet to XXXXX about them.

You have done no less than convince me I would likely not enjoy browsing in your shop. I might aggravate you if I didn't spend a wad.

SRH


In our culture the concept "the customer is always right" does not exist especially in regulated business activities which with paperwork gun selling business is. Whoever coined that stupid phrase probably sold cheap "pots and pans,...." Sure, if one sells inexpensive trinkets and such.....We believe the customer is always a customer and must be treated with respect, dignity and kindness. We expect the customer to return the same.


You know J, even as a kid I understood the point my Dad was trying to make to me. As an adult, you still can't seem to grasp it. Whoever coined that phrase likely expected adults to understand the intent, if not keep the letter, of the "law".

SRH


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Originally Posted By: Jagermeister


I know what the fair market value is. I ask if the gun is consignment or owned by the seller. Based on that knowledge I make reasonable offer which will not insult the seller. If that is rejected I will follow with what in CASH what will you accept? One must keep in mind is that I do not pay for mistakes of others.


Can you explain this concept to me, because it remains a mystery to me.

Assuming that I am an honest seller and truthfully report my sales to the proper authorities, the difference between cash and credit card is, at most, about 3 percent -- which is on the high side for credit card processing fees. Given that, why should I get weak in the knees when somebody offers cash?

I guess the implication of a "what would you take for cash" question is that I'm going to cook the books and only pay taxes on a smaller sale. Does the question suggest that buyer assumes the seller is a crook? Is that what is being suggested?

Or, are we talking some other alternative to cash? Live chickens or baskets of fresh produce, perhaps.


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Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher


Or, are we talking some other alternative to cash? Live chickens or baskets of fresh produce, perhaps.



cash vs. layaway maybe.

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If the seller comes up with fair price I don't want them to fork over American Express percentage or about 3% from other companies. Asking for best price and offering credit card as payment doesn't work for me.

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Originally Posted By: JBLondon
Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher


Or, are we talking some other alternative to cash? Live chickens or baskets of fresh produce, perhaps.



cash vs. layaway maybe.


This is what in our culture we understand as "smaller profit is better than no profit at all". Best cash price and expecting layaway does not work for me.

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Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
If the seller comes up with fair price I don't want them to fork over American Express percentage or about 3% from other companies. Asking for best price and offering credit card as payment doesn't work for me.


I agree that the card processing fee can make a borderline offer unacceptable. In close calls 3 percent does make a difference. But my impression is that most people asking the cash question expect a more significant discount.

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Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister


I know what the fair market value is. I ask if the gun is consignment or owned by the seller. Based on that knowledge I make reasonable offer which will not insult the seller. If that is rejected I will follow with what in CASH what will you accept? One must keep in mind is that I do not pay for mistakes of others.


Can you explain this concept to me, because it remains a mystery to me.

Assuming that I am an honest seller and truthfully report my sales to the proper authorities, the difference between cash and credit card is, at most, about 3 percent -- which is on the high side for credit card processing fees. Given that, why should I get weak in the knees when somebody offers cash?

I guess the implication of a "what would you take for cash" question is that I'm going to cook the books and only pay taxes on a smaller sale. Does the question suggest that buyer assumes the seller is a crook? Is that what is being suggested?

Or, are we talking some other alternative to cash? Live chickens or baskets of fresh produce, perhaps.



I've always wondered that, too, bladeswitcher. Excellent question.

SRH


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Stan:

You are correct, I stand corrected, it was not Tmair.

Many of you on this site have purchased from me and you know how you were treated.

Stan and the others who say they will not do business with me in the future because of my comments and because I have express some of my feelings, ok. I understand, I think I have not had your business in the last 44 years either.

You guys are welcome to continue this thread

Enough said on my part.

John


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A gentlemanly way to end it, John. No hard feelings on my part. Never was.

I wish the best for you and your business.

SRH


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You guys are all wet about the burden of merchant credit card fees. Many online sellers and gunshow dealers now are adding 3% to the price for credit card purchases. One, I know that's too high, and two, I'll walk away from the purchase on account of it.

The whole point of credit cards is to make purchasing your wares more convenient. I won't pay you for the convenience because it is what enables you to make the sale.

I even stopped at a rip-mart convenience store/gas station the other day picked up a coke and a package of peanuts. I handed the clerk a visa card and he told me there was a dollar upcharge for the credit card. I walked back to the rack and put up the peanuts and on to the cooler and put up the coke...Geo

I guess this is as close as I get to a rant.

Two weeks ago I put a cadillac on my american express because I wanted the frequent flyer miles.

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
You guys are all wet about the burden of merchant credit card fees. Many online sellers and gunshow dealers now are adding 3% to the price for credit card purchases. One, I know that's too high, and two, I'll walk away from the purchase on account of it.

The whole point of credit cards is to make purchasing your wares more convenient. I won't pay you for the convenience because it is what enables you to make the sale . . .


What you say is true if something is being sold at or near the marked price. It's a different story when a guy hammers you on the price and then whips out a credit card. I learned long ago to ask about form of payment when considering an offer.

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
.

Two weeks ago I put a cadillac on my american express because I wanted the frequent flyer miles.


I wish I could do this. I have tried, but never been able to. Albeit was an F150, not a caddy


_________
BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)

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Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
You guys are all wet about the burden of merchant credit card fees. Many online sellers and gunshow dealers now are adding 3% to the price for credit card purchases. One, I know that's too high, and two, I'll walk away from the purchase on account of it.

The whole point of credit cards is to make purchasing your wares more convenient. I won't pay you for the convenience because it is what enables you to make the sale . . .



What you say is true if something is being sold at or near the marked price. It's a different story when a guy hammers you on the price and then whips out a credit card. I learned long ago to ask about form of payment when considering an offer.


Bladeswitcher that is where you and I disagree. When I negotiate a lower price than what you ask, it is because I won't pay your asking price. If we agree on a price, my position is that how I pay for it is a different question and is my sole choice...Geo

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Originally Posted By: BrentD
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
.

Two weeks ago I put a cadillac on my american express because I wanted the frequent flyer miles.


I wish I could do this. I have tried, but never been able to. Albeit was an F150, not a caddy


Brent, the caddy was wife's anniversary present and replaced her 16 year old Acura. We don't buy new cars often. However, I have also done the skymiles thing on other large purchases and for the same reason...Geo

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern

Bladeswitcher that is where you and I disagree. When I negotiate a lower price than what you ask, it is because I won't pay your asking price. If we agree on a price, my position is that how I pay for it is a different question and is my sole choice...Geo


And I factor in method of payment when considering a price offer. A deal happens when both parties are satisfied with the terms. It's really not complicated.

If I have something priced for $1,100 and you propose paying $1,000 I may ask how you're paying. If you say cash I know that I'm going to receive $1,000. But if you say you're going to use your credit card I know I'm actually only getting $970. If I don't want to accept a further $30 cut I politely decline your offer and we go our ways. Again, it's not complicated.

Now, if you're willing to pay my $1,100 price I would be foolish to object to credit card payment.

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Of course, if you ask how I'll pay, I'll tell you, but either way I presume you are compensating yourself for your overhead or you would not agree to the negotiated price. I told the dealer at the cadillac place up front how I was paying and why. It was a cash deal either way in my mind because I'll pay the cc as soon as I get the bill. I just wanted the skymiles. Skymiles or convenience, either way that's why you are making the sale, and I still won't pay extra for it...Geo

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Most online vendors state up front whether or not credit card purchases are acceptable and under what terms. I wouldn't accept a blindsided up charge when not mentioned in the ad. Credit card purchases also offer a degree of protection to the buyer not available otherwise. Gil

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Geo, you heading to Africa to hunt Buff with all those miles? smile

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Originally Posted By: treblig1958
Geo, you heading to Africa to hunt Buff with all those miles?


I wish! Nah, but it ought to get me up to Canada next Fall...Geo

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I will agree here if there is an extra charge for a credit card it should be posted, or stated, up front. MMany places of business will have a minimum purchase required for a credit card even if there is not an additional charge. I would have to be awfully thirsty before I would try to buy a coke & bag of peanuts on a credit card, to me that is just not what they are for. I fill my gas tank at a self serve station & like to fill up when I pull in. I use a credit card there for convenience, as I don't know exactly how much it will hold. Using the card saves two trips over to the cashier's window, I then pay off the card on a monthly basis to keep from paying interest.


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Miller, I was awful thirsty but the reason I handed the guy the cc was I didn't want to break a fifty...Geo

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Geo;
Understandable, however the reason I made my statement is most convenience marts in my area seem to have a statement posted by the register minimum C-Card purchase of $5.00 required. Anything less than that amount they expect cash. Above $5.00 they have no extra charge for the card, same price as cash. Most of them have their own company card for the brand of fuel they carry, but accept all major cards as well.


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My late father-in-law worked in a small town law office with his father. He had some difficult clients making his life miserable; he asked his dad why they had to work for such folks. "Jim, if you can't do business with the sonsabitches who are you going to do business with?" Gil

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Originally Posted By: GLS
"Jim, if you can't do business with the sonsabitches who are you going [to] do business with?"


I knew there had to be a reason I was still reading this thread. Thanks for sharing that one, Gil, I'll have to get it printed and framed!
BW

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