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As this goes on it bugs me even more (if that's possible). The NFL is making some very poor business decisions IMHO. I'm to the point where I sincerely hope they end-up paying for those bad decisions.

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Slavery was morally wrong, but was an economic question at the time of the WBTS. Slavery was an American institution, not just a southern one. If James Watt had been born in the USA, slavery would have been over without a war by 1865.

The point and cause of the war was the preservation of the Union. Probably best we lost...Geo

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Slavery was morally wrong, but was an economic question at the time of the WBTS. Slavery was an American institution, not just a southern one. If James Watt had been born in the USA, slavery would have been over without a war by 1865.

The point and cause of the war was the preservation of the Union. Probably best we lost...Geo

American History in a nutshell. And the James Watt you mentioned wasn't the former Secretary of the Interior. wink Gil

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It came too damn close, but reconciliation between the states would not have been out of the question later on.

But there's still a lot of pride in them "Stars and Bars"

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Originally Posted By: treblig1958

But there's still a lot of pride in them "Stars and Bars"


Yes...Geo

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Keith;
As to this tangent it was introduced by you back on page two of this thread. In that tread you stated the Democrats started the "Civil War". This is of course a total untruth. The War was unconstitutionally started by Lincoln himself, a Republican.
This war was NOT a Civil War as the Confederacy never tried to take over the Us Government, but simply Peacefully remove themselves from it. In fact you will find that Neither side ever officially declared war against the other, neither was there any kind of treaty made at the end, they just quit shooting.
Yes, it is true the Confederacy fired the first shots at Sumter. They were coerced to this by Lincoln. The Fort was on South Carolina soil. SC had asked Lincoln on several occasions to remove the Union troops from this fort. They offered to reimburse the /us for the price of the fort & to safely transport the troops out of Charleston Harbor to awaiting US Transport ships. Instead Lincoln sent ships loaded with reinforcement troops, provisions and arms. As these ships approached the harbor General Beauregard decided his only option was to physically take the fort before it could be reinforced. This was accomplished. In the entire battle one Union soldier & no Confederates were killed. This man was
not killed by direct enemy fire but by a powder explosion inside the fort, no doubt an indirect result of the bombardment. When Lincoln was informed of the surrender he simply said, Well no matter, our mission has been accomplished (not a direct quote but in my words is what he said).
Lincoln was not a dummy, he knew he had not the authority to declare war, so he didn't. Instead he pulled up a factor from the constitution which allowed the President to send in federal troops when a situation arose that was threatening civilian lives & was out of control of local law enforcement. George Washington had used this when he sent troops to
Pennsylvania to put down the "Whiskey Rebellion". The situation did not exist at Charleston as it did in Penn, civilians were not being threatened nor was local law enforcement. Never-the-less Lincoln immediately called upon each state of the union to send men & arms to put down the rebellion. At this point 4 additional states seceded, stating they would not bring arms to bear upon the Southern Brethren. Missouri, Kentucky & Maryland were unconstitutionally prevented from doing likewise. So Yes Abraham Lincoln started the War. By his own words it was not because of Slavery. His reasons for not ceding Fort Sumter to SC were two fold. 1st as Charleston Harbor was a Major Seaport for both imports & exports he did not want to lose the tariff there. In this he failed. 2nd he "Wanted" to start the war but he wanted to coerce the "South" into firing the first shot. In this he succeeded.
Calling Abe Honest is about like calling Satan himself honest. He should be referred as Sly Old Abe.

Stan
Great Post, Thanks.
Miller/TN


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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It seems to me we are venturing into possibly unturned loose screw territory here. Lets keep it limited to golf and hockey.

Go Leafs/Wings!


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Actually Miller, I did not state that the Democrats started the Civil War on pg. 2 of this thread. What I did do was to post some information I found entitled " A Brief History of the Relationship Between the Democrat Party and African-Americans". But I am not the author of that informative little article. I believe most of it is correct as I have read many of the same things about the Democrats from numerous other sources. Vote totals for Civil Rights legislation and the various Civil Rights Acts are easily found in the Congressional Record. There is much disagreement about who or what actually started the Civil War, and whether the conflict fits the definition of a "Civil War". I am aware that there were also some slaves in some Northern States, and also that there were free blacks in the U.S. who owned and traded black slaves. Some sources define a "Civil War" as a war between citizens of the same country... which the festivities that began in 1861 certainly was. And some historians claim that Lincoln was justified in calling up troops to put down the rebellion at Ft. Sumter. Some folks also say that Franklin Roosevelt coerced the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor and the Phillipines. I'm pretty sure some Japanese see history differently than we do.

But I wasn't trying to start another Civil War here. I merely made the tongue-in-cheek observation about hockey because it appeared that this thread had been diverted far away from the original topic about spoiled NFL players choosing to disrespect the flag during The National Anthem.

I do understand and respect having pride in your heritage and in the sacrifices made by your forefathers for defending their way of life. I'm personally disgusted by recent actions to whitewash history by removing Confederate statues and memorials. Honoring Confederate soldiers in no way excuses or glamorizes slavery. But Geo may find out that he is no longer welcome to share a Nova Scotia duck blind with King, JFK, and MLK as a result of his pride in the Stars and Bars. And Stan will never get an answer to his question to Jagermeister... the Liberal guy who doesn't own even one lousy double gun.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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I'll draw that line right there as I couldn't and wouldn't hunt with anyone who doesn't have reverence for that flag.

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Originally Posted By: 2-piper
Anyone who thinks Slavery was bot an issue in the mid 1800's is like an ostrich with his head buried in the sand. anyone who thinks it was the only issue is like a mole who is completely underground in his tunnel & unseeing. Abraham Lincoln himself said the War was not fought over slavery but preserving the union. He stated "IF" he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave he would do so, "IF" it required freeing them he would do so. He actually had no concern at all for the Blac race, feeling them an inferior race who could never live on an equal basis with Whites. His solution to the problem was to export them all "OUT" of the US either to Africa or the Caribbeans. Also don't forget that while the Late War was being fought construction of the US Capitol was underway with the use "SLAVE" labor.
After South Carolina & several other states had seceded The State if Virginia sent representatives to talk with Lincoln over a short period of time. These representatives flat out told Lincoln "IF" he would follow the constitution of the US Virginia would not secede, they would support him & do their very best to bring the seceded states back in the Union. During these sessions not once was slavery mentioned, Lincoln was concerned about his "Tariff". At this point he "Federal Government's" only source of income was tariffs. A new tariff law had just been enacted which on some items raised the tariff from 13% to as much as 40%. The South was paying around 75%-80% of this tariff already. The South did not much feel like being more heavily burdened but they had not enough representatives in congress to stop it though dissent was being raised. Lincoln had vowed his full support of this tariff. Upon his election with Charleston Harbor being a major Seaport South Carolina immediately seceded. They were quickly followed by 6 other states, which one might note nearly every one had a major seaport. After Fort Sumter When Lincoln "Unconstitutionally" called upon the states to provide men & arms to "Put Down the Rebellion" & Force these 7 states back into the union 4 more states joined the Canfedercy, including the state of Virginia & my home state of Tennessee.
It is a Crying Shame that "History" has lied so much & distorted the truth, but as Confederate General Patrick Claiborne said shortly before his death in the battle of Franklin TN, He who Wins the War, Writes the History.
What is even more Shameful is the number of people, even many Confederate descendants, who have believed the "BIG LIE".

YES; I freely admit I am descended from Confederate veterans. Two of my G-Great Grand Fathers along with numerous other relatives fought for the CSA. I apologize to NO ONE for this. One of my G-Great Grandfathers fought with the 45th Tennessee Infantry, the other the Starnes McLemore 4th Tennessee Volunteer Cavalry. I am a proud member of the Sons of Confederate of Veterans, (SCV) have a battle flag in my home, previously flew a larger one from my porch but it wore out & have not yet replaced it. I will note that at our Monthly meeting we open with a prayer to the eternal God. This is followed by a Pledge of Allegiance to the US Flag, which is then followed by a salute to the battle flag. A good number of our members either are now or have served in the US Military forces. We are "NOT" a racist group. Atrocities have been committed by people carrying the US flag as well as the Confederate flag. Both were in total disrespect of the flag they were carrying & what it represented.
As to me personally I am also Not Racist. Over the years I have had a number of good friends whom I highly respected. I also have a 3rd or 4th cousin who is black. He is welcomed at our Family Reunions. I believe he is now retired but for many years he was a preacher of the True New Testament Church. I have heard him preach on several occasions & he simply preaches the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. He in fact preached the /funeral for one of my Uncles & a few years later that of his Wife, my Aunt by marriage.
Oh the "LIES" which have been swallowed over the years.

No connection to any of the above but just an example of lies from history books that many have swallowed over the years, Samuel Colt did not Invent the revolver, only improved it. His own patent claims make this perfectly clear.
Just thought it time to show there are two sides to every story & most of what is "Politically Correct" today are simply Untruths.

Miller/TN

Amen

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