doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Basket case guns and overly proud owners.

Ever look at a gun and just wondered what that person was thinking or smoking when they decided what to do to it? Looked at a Fox CE today that I just had so many issues with it and I can't decide if it is just me being picky or if my issues are what passes for normal around here.

The gun was a 12 ga. with a straight stock and beaver tail for end. The gun was converted to a straight grip and you could easily see where the extension had been added to the trigger guard. I could do better welding at ten. The shape was not right and looked to flat and too wide. The engraving was not very good on the new portion.

Then the barrels had been rust blued but all the lines were just so soft, almost loosing definition. At first I thought they had been buffed but I think they got pitted too much while being rust blued. Case color was 10% in protected area on the receiver. Screws were not buggered so much as the slots had been widened to fix that. But most of the engraving on them was wiped out.

I was not impressed with the restock job or the choice of wood.
The butt stock was not well inlet and the shape was just off. The checkering was too fine on the butt stock with terrible execution. The fore end checkering looked decent and fit was a decent looking job until I looked at the amount of glass bedding used. Looked like a bondo job almost. But the worst problem of all was that they had used a feather Black Walnut blank and did a crappy job of layout instead of finding a decent English Walnut blank. I thought it might have been a original for end but that glass bedding job never left the factory like that and Black Walnut just was wrong. I guess they might have used Black Walnut near the end or at a customers request. I just never saw one on a C grade.

Mechanically it was fine but such a mess. I started to count up what I would have invested into it if I bought it and tried to straighten it out. The bill just keep growing and growing. I started with the most obvious problem of needing to restock in in a decent English Walnut blank. But then figured I would need to have all the engraving picked up. New screws made and timed. Then the metal all refinished. So I asked what price he was thinking of and he hit me with a 99% BlueBook value. It was after all in such high condition. I just handed it back and said way too rich for my blood which seemed to make him feel good.

So is it just me? When you look at a gun do you almost feel sorry for what some of them have endured? And I refuse to try to educate sellers when they have such a basket case. They just get mad or defensive about stuff. I try to be polite and wash my hands of the gun. Hand it back and say nothing to encourage them but also nothing to insult them or their crappy gun.

I do believe that the restoration of vintage guns has come to the point where they look like they came off the finishers bench yesterday. And of course, it is the owner�s choice to restore to new condition, or the owner could just have enough restoration to stop the guns slide into mechanical oblivion.
As for myself I lean more to letting a gun show its well looked after condition and letting its age shine through and growing old gracefully, rather than displaying what a re-finisher thinks the gun should look like.
But in the end, it is the owner�s choice.

It's just you.

I don't waste time critiquing bad guns for sale, or arguing or commenting on the price of a gun I have no intention of buying. Consequently, I have more time at a show to search for guns I am really interested in.

I'm like KY Jon, I don't say anything that the seller would find insulting but I don't give them any encouragement either.

I've seen a lot of 'overly restored' guns - while I don't know what it looked like prior to all the work the owner/seller put into it, I suspect it might have been in pretty good original condition before the butchers when to work on it. Like Damascus said, I prefer to see a gun in its well-aged condition than one made to "look like new." But that's just me....

I'm sure many on this forum have picked up redone guns and thought "What were they thinking"? We however are probably better then most in the real world who don't know much about doubles and compare the redone gun to perhaps a Remington 870 with a Birch stock. In their minds the gun is exceptional with the "enhancements". Couple of years ago at the NE SXS a gentleman came by the booth I was helping to man and said he had a couple of Parkers out in his car that he wanted to sell with eye popping wood at a good price. I strolled out there and yes, it was somewhat like what you mention. Pretty blank of American Walnut that didn't fit the grade of the gun and all the restocking and other work was no where near what one would expect to see on any grade Parker. I had zero interest at any price (well perhaps at a 870 price) and remarked that that indeed was a wonderful stick of wood that was put on the gun, but that I was mostly a Fox guy and really didn't need it. Did thank him for taking the time to show them to me and wished him well in finding a buyer.

Don't forget sentiment's powerful voice. I've workaday guns I'm proud of because of the circumstances by which they came into my possession. I have no exaggerated illusions of their market value. They remind me of previous owners and where I came from. Price and looks isn't everything.

One would expect that the owner of a Fox CE would have some indication of what he had, and pursue work befitting of the grade of gun it is.

One would be wrong. Some of these guns are ending up with second cousins step nephew-in-laws after the owners cashes in. I believe I read that about 5% of the population still hunts, and bird hunters would be a subset of that 5%. I recently came into a Darne that a liberal witch couldn't wait to get out of her house. Clear thinking on a subject outside of her political realm would not appear to have been her fort�, and I was damn surprised the gun simply didn't go into her trash can, rolled in a rug, under cover of darkness.

So it goes. You can lament, or, you can simply move on.

Best,
Ted

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100919080

Arrrrggggghhhhh....

I weep at every gun show

Researcher, a lot of people on this forum with much more knowledge than me so I'm always trying to learn. I take it from your last statement (by the way, best spelling of arrrrggggghhhhh that I've seen in a long time)that this is an example of what the OP was talking about? I look at this gun and think what they did to polish some of the components is unfortunate. Can't see if any of the screws are buggered. I'm sure there are other things that I'm missing? Based on what they are showing/telling I could see where some would look at it and say it was a sweet looking gun. Would you (or others) please enlighten me?

Thanks
Kirk

It is not a sweet looking gun.

Unless I'm mistaken (and please correct me if I am), what Researcher is "arrrggggghhhhh'ing" at are the changes to the gun from the way it came from the factory, the nickel/chrome whatever that is, the gold triggers, the recoil pad and the 2 tone forend release.

Some folks, including certain members of my family would look at that gun and feel it was fancied up in an acceptable manner.

If any of those members of my family had bought that and handed me their new pride and joy to show it off, I would dutifully throw it to my shoulder and smile and hand it back, sans comments.

Inside however I would probably be crying....

Mergus

The stock is a disaster.

It's all a disaster. Kirkp, you need to start looking at guns that are in their original condition. "Bright and shiney" is not a good thing. Original rust blueing has a soft luster. Case colors,even when worn are not shiney. Stocks were finished with oil and where satin or eggshell. It's all supposed to be understated and classy. That poor Philadelphia Arms gun looks like a Cadillac with a vinyl roof, too much chrome and whitewall tires.

No relation to any gun in this thread.
Here's a quote from someone we all know and love.
Made without the presence of sugar coating or kid gloves.

"The gun was restocked by an idiot, the barrel markings were destroyed by an idiot, the rib was installed by Simmons at the request of an idiot.
That gun has the value of a gun that has the same shooter utility, 870 Express, $175.00 in high condition.
Everything above $175.00 is collector value, and this gun has none".

Kirk: An old Navy term would describe it . . . "Screwed, blued and tattooed!"

Jolly

Kirk it looks good if you are into hammer guns, But this gun was said to be not worth spending any cash on because it was too far gone in every way in the 1960s. Though as a young man I thought it was too good to become a wall hanger the barrels though dented and covered with rust where still well within our Brit proof limits.



This was the guns stock the picture is not all that good. You can see that there was no chequering left though you can not see the crack through the wrist and also around the lock bar's position so in all honesty it could not be re used. The piece of odd looking timber was fitted so it could be fitted in the duplicator. Its final finish was tradition oil finish with applied wax over the years to give that gentle lustre.
The one good thing was the action and lock plates had been polished so it would look good on a wall, but not over polished.





From the photographs you can see the pins (screws) are as been said "Bugged" but seeing they still do their allotted job and have been part of the gun for a hundred and fifty years my decision was not to replace them.



The pin you see in the trigger plate is a replacement only because the original was missing.
The barrels went through a lot of repair work and seeing that they where very rusty initially they have been re browned.
Also the trigger guard, hammers, and thumb leaver, where all coated in a thick layer of rust so the decision was taken to blue them rather than leave in the state they where after their de rusting.
Hopefully the restoration did not remove too much of the guns age though what it did do was give it another lease of useful life.
This restoration may not please all but it at the time suited what I thought was the minimum to bring the gun to a shootable condition. Also it was all the money I could afford, and I do feel that the restoration has stood up aesthetically well through the changes of taste over the years.

If done properly, correctly, and well, I have no problem with an older American SxS shotgun restored to "as new" condition. There are a few gunsmiths that do this quite well. Unfortunately, there are also other gunsmiths that don't restore "correctly, properly, or well."

In my opinion, the best candidates for full restoration are "name brand" older American SxS shotguns that have had a previous hard life and have significant existing faults or blemishes. Properly bringing them back to their original beauty is a good deed.

gold40

I'm surprised and disappointed to hear so many guys say they simply walk away from a poorly restored and vastly over-priced gun. In my opinion, all that does is encourage those who perform such desecrations. I like to tell them, in no uncertain terms, why I think their gun is crap. And if their pricing is 90% Blue Book on a 10% gun, I pointedly remind them that Blue Book prices are typically full blown retail, and their tarted up amateur restoration hasn't seen 90% condition since Woodrow Wilson was President. Why encourage ignorance? Venting your disgust over such atrocities here, long after the fact, accomplishes nothing. Better to direct your energy in the proper direction... and the smile you will wear afterward will lower your blood pressure.

Well Keith, a good point. I look at it as a opportunity to educate someone on their inventory, but most dealers are not very receptive when you try it. I always say I'm not interested in the gun before I offer my opinions, but my experience is that when I provide it they usually look at me like I was from Mars. Especially if they've either done the work themselves, or overpaid for the gun.

Regards
Ken

You don't find many sellers that will take those comments and run with them. Most respond with a pugilistic comment that just further proves their lack of knowledge. I know people who have thousands of dollars in double guns and still insist on spending money on really bad guns. There is the possibility that they know better but just can't help themselves when presented with a near impossible project.

Some people have manners, and some do not.

Exactly! That's why I have frequently reminded some individuals here that dishonesty is not civility. Fake manners is precisely that... fake. I'd rather take the chance that my comment about poor restoration or insane pricing might be somewhat offensive, than to perpetuate such behaviors and see more guns ruined by fools and frauds.

On a related note, you should have seen some of the looks I got at gunshows when ammo prices skyrocketed a few years back. Guys were crowding around ammo vendors clamoring to pay $50-60 for a brick of .22LR or nearly a buck a round for 5.56m/m ammo to feed their AR's. And I would casually stroll by and loudly ask my buddy, "How many of these guys were stupid enough to vote for Obama?" The cold glares from the guilty were priceless.

I usually don't say anything unless asked. I've had a run in or two with dealers misrepresenting the grade of Darne guns at shows, but, that was more of a problem before Al Gore junior invented the internet. If you get taken now, shame on you, that information is out there.
A long time ago, I did ask a dealer about a Baker I was interested in, as to whether it was an "A" or an "R", as I didn't know enough about them to know for sure. He told me he didn't give a crap (not the exact word he used) about any letters on the gun, just the numbers on the price tag.
He was a dink, but, taught me a valuable lesson that day. Don't buy what you don't know.
My forays into expensive guns have been brief, and some have ended badly. The only guns I will ever make money on, I made that money at the time of the buy, not when it eventually sells. I don't really collect guns, and have them to use and enjoy. None of them will look new when they are sold.
I have a model 1912, first year 20 gauge, that most would say is badly refinished. It has new wood, and was re blued, without a lot of concern for the lettering on the barrel, as it was worn off in spots from use and abuse. But, I use it, and enjoy it just the same. I have had guys drool on it, asking about the great condition, and I always gently point out it was a roach, that has been refinished, and show them how to tell.
But, that is my gun, and doing that is different than slamming their's.
I buy so little these days, it isn't worth making a huge deal out of someone else's gun to me.

Best,
Ted

I tend to fall in line with Keith's thinking on this subject. We do no one any good by perpetuating stupidity.

That said, it's been my experience that one can point to the obvious deficiencies in a gun (that inanimate object over there that has no feelings) without insulting the seller of the gun (the live person standing beside me who clearly does have feelings). I choose my words carefully, never referencing the choices that have been made. Choices are human. I simply address what is wrong with the gun and how it should be.

As a potential customer, there is nothing offensive about explaining why I am or am not interested in a specific gun. The seller can do what he wants with that info....write me off as an idiot, learn something, scratch his head in wonder....I don't really care. What I won't do is insult him or his choices.

Good post, James. I don't know if it's a case of perpetuating stupidity, though. We're all ignorant, only in different ways. My experience is cool has displaced thunder in negotiating/educating i.e. children to eat turnips or adults to see things differently---because it works.

craigd should be along shortly to explain to you how wrong you are King. Politely of course.


___________________________
If you want blood, you�ve got it. Bon Scott

I also think there is a difference between a private seller and a dealer.

Dealers often have just enough knowledge to make stupid mistakes and to believe their own bullshit. They are used to being perceived as knowing more than they actually do. And they don't like it when they are caught out.

Private sellers are often more open to learning when they run across someone who is polite but appears to know more about that thing they own than they do.

I could be wrong but I think 30 years of professional selling has taught me a little about human nature.

Being alive 55 years has taught me a little about human nature.


_________________________
I used to be such a sweet young thing until they got a hold of me. Alice Cooper

Although a little old fashion, I know, I fall back on some of the things I learned in my younger years. First "If you don't have something nice to say, excuse yourself and say nothing at all!". Next "If someone wants your opinion they will ask for it and then if you choose to provide it do so in a civil and poised manner!" And finally "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!". Because I do not like the way something looks or is done doesn't mean I should hop up on the apple crate and belittle it. If the item is being offered for sale and does not meet with my approval, I politely decline and walk away. I might wish to deal with this person in the future on another items and find no reason to burn bridges unnecessarily. Just on old guys opinion... WBLDon

wbl: well said...and my sentiments as well...

And about 99% of it is stomach churning. Just wait until you have a few years to REALLY pick up on it.

I want to make one little distinction here. I didn't say you have to personally insult the seller in order to let them know why their poorly refinished gun is poorly refinished and/or over-priced.

Just about every gunsmithing book or article I have ever read makes the same points and the same observations about poor polishing, sanding, screw buggering, etc. Nobody ever accuses the authors of poor manners for speaking the truth. Nobody (with any brains at least) ever says that a teacher is rude for correcting a student for making spelling or math errors, even at the risk of hurting their feelings.

On the other hand, my comments pertaining to the abject stupidity of so-called gun guys who vote for extreme anti-gun Liberal Democrats stands. Shooting yourself in the foot and stabbing your friends in the back is never considered intelligent or mannerly... even in the most refined and polite circles.

Keith, it may have looked that way but I certainly didn't mean to imply you were being rude to perspective sellers by speaking the truth to them. I was really responding to those who suggest that being silent is the only way to be polite. Not insulting people is the way to be polite, rather than pretending their gun is just fine.