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#487781 - 08/12/17 04:40 PM Ithaca Flues grade questions
Discus420 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/27/17
Posts: 11
I have been reading everything I can find trying to correctly grade this shotty The water board is stamped S 12 it is engraved with that awesome Art deco style Floral and has "Krupp Fluid Steel" SN is 255XXX so I am thinking 1914 I heard there was a 7 page post dealing with this but I cant find it. all numbers match. Is it a grade 1 1/2 ??


Edited by Discus420 (08/12/17 04:54 PM)

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#487785 - 08/12/17 05:50 PM Re: Ithaca Flues grade questions [Re: Discus420]
Researcher Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 4960
Loc: WA/AK
That sounds perplexing. Up into early 1915, the No. 1 1/2 had the frame with the roll-stamped dog with company name and a bit of zig-zag border engraving with Damascus barrels, while the Field Grade, No. 1 and the No. 1 Special just had the roll-stamped dog with company name. Field Grade had Smokeless Powder Steel and a half-pistol grip stock. The No. 1 had Twist steel barrels and the No. 1 Special had Cockerill Steel barrels. In mid-1915, Ithaca Gun Co. introduced the bold floral engraving on the No. 1 1/2 and added the option of Krupp Fluid Steel barrels. Perhaps your gun is an early sample of the new style engraving and barrels?

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#487786 - 08/12/17 05:55 PM Re: Ithaca Flues grade questions [Re: Discus420]
John E Offline
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Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 235
Loc: JAX,FL
Discus420,

Welcome to our board.

Your ser# does fall as a 1914 mfg. The grade is a No. 1 Special. The Floral engraving was first cataloged in 1915. Not all guns followed strictly to the catalog offerings. I have an S stamped 12 ga., ser# 196xxx that has damascus barrels.

John

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#487787 - 08/12/17 06:08 PM Re: Ithaca Flues grade questions [Re: Researcher]
Discus420 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/27/17
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: Researcher
That sounds perplexing. Up into early 1915, the No. 1 1/2 had the frame with the roll-stamped dog with company name and a bit of zig-zag border engraving with Damascus barrels, while the Field Grade, No. 1 and the No. 1 Special just had the roll-stamped dog with company name. Field Grade had Smokeless Powder Steel and a half-pistol grip stock. The No. 1 had Twist steel barrels and the No. 1 Special had Cockerill Steel barrels. In mid-1915, Ithaca Gun Co. introduced the bold floral engraving on the No. 1 1/2 and added the option of Krupp Fluid Steel barrels. Perhaps your gun is an early sample of the new style engraving and barrels?


From what I have seen its the earliest Flues I could find with the floral pattern. I also have never seen a a grade 1 with this design and Krupps Steel

what would make it a 1 and not a 1 1/2 ??


Edited by Discus420 (08/12/17 10:09 PM)

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#487788 - 08/12/17 06:14 PM Re: Ithaca Flues grade questions [Re: John E]
Discus420 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/27/17
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: John E
Discus420,

Welcome to our board.

Your ser# does fall as a 1914 mfg. The grade is a No. 1 Special. The Floral engraving was first cataloged in 1915. Not all guns followed strictly to the catalog offerings. I have an S stamped 12 ga., ser# 196xxx that has damascus barrels.

John


Thanks John! I just came into 2 nice SxS and trying to learn about both . So what is it that makes a gun a 1 or a 1 1/2??
Also do you guys have a name for this type of engraving? is it specific to one person?


Edited by Discus420 (08/12/17 06:16 PM)

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#487803 - 08/13/17 06:44 AM Re: Ithaca Flues grade questions [Re: Discus420]
Ken61 Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 03/24/13
Posts: 2814
Loc: Iowa
I think we are referring to "Acanthus Leaf" engraving. This was used on the 1 1/2. I can't recall if it was used on the #1 Special, as John noted. It certainly may have been. In a previous thread someone, possibly Walt, made the point that on the 1 1/2, they went to Acanthus Leaf during the summer of 1906. (or was it 1908?). So, this predates Researcher's info somewhat. Before, the 1 1/2 had the Dog, simple border engraving, and 2-iron Damascus barrels, usually made by Heuse Riga-Fils. Nice thing is that the crolle is proportional to the gauge, I've recolored 20, 16 and 12 gauge HRF sets, the smaller crolle especially is beautiful. What is really certain is that there was lot's of variation throughout the models offered.

I know of one member that has used this info to his advantage, as he found an early 1 1/2 20ga. gun with the earlier engraving, and since book values for the 1 1/2 are based on the later AL engraving, once he pointed that out he was able to negotiate a significant discount.

Regards
Ken


Edited by Ken61 (08/13/17 07:11 AM)
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#487806 - 08/13/17 08:23 AM Re: Ithaca Flues grade questions [Re: Discus420]
John E Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 235
Loc: JAX,FL
I do have theory:

Ithaca seldom made a stop-go change in their mfg. Something was changed and the guns went out the door. This happened with changes from one model to another and also within models. There are also "employee" guns that were put together to the whim of the person it was for. There was a group of early ser# Lewis models, and a few 4 screw Flues models. There may have also been a few, earlier than cataloged, Flues models made up with the floral engraving as to test the pattern?

Is your engraving pattern the same as the later Floral pattern?

John

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#487810 - 08/13/17 10:10 AM Re: Ithaca Flues grade questions [Re: Discus420]
Researcher Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 4960
Loc: WA/AK
All the entry-level Flues Model Ithaca doubles, the Field Grade, the No. 1, the No. 1 Special and the No. 1 1/2 were in a constant state of flux from 1915 through 1919 as Ithaca ran out of composite iron and steel barrel tubes and of course through that time frame Krupp barrels fell out of favor in the U.S. In a couple of catalogs the No. 1 had the zig-zag border engraving that prior to mid-1915 had been on the No. 1 1/2, and they all got steel barrels as the European sources of Twist and Damascus barrels dried up due to the Great War. By late 1919 catalogs Ithaca Gun Co. had simplified the line. The Field Grade got a capped pistol grip stock, the No. 1 Special and the No. 1 1/2 were gone and the "New" No. 1 had the floral engraving of the 1915 to 1918 No. 1 1/2, with "Fluid Steel" barrels. How much these changes in the catalogs led or lagged what the workers on the factory floor were building is anyone's guess. That is how the No. 1 remained well into the NID period until the No. 1 and 3 were both dropped circa 1935.

I use to have a canned response about this time period at Ithaca with pictures of all the catalog pages, but Photobucket.com did that in!!


Edited by Researcher (08/13/17 10:12 AM)

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#487817 - 08/13/17 03:35 PM Re: Ithaca Flues grade questions [Re: John E]
Discus420 Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 05/27/17
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: John E


Is your engraving pattern the same as the later Floral pattern?

John


Here are some pics http://imgur.com/a/PK1eb

How can I clean this metal? I can see some case colors and would love to bring these out if possible? OR do I just leave it alone? would re bluing the barrels help or harm the value?


Edited by Discus420 (08/13/17 10:13 PM)

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#487831 - 08/14/17 06:39 AM Re: Ithaca Flues grade questions [Re: Discus420]
John E Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 235
Loc: JAX,FL
Discus420,

Compare the engraving at the following link. It is similar but different. I think it was a trial period and final decisions for the pattern were not yet set.

http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/2016/01/good-gun-alert-16g-ithaca-flues-grade-1-12/

Cleaning the metal: The barrels can be wiped with #0000 steel wool and a light to medium oil. Don't be agressive. Use a brass brush on and around the ribs. As the oil muds up, wipe clean and re-oil. When clean to your satifaction coat with a light coat of gun oil( or degrease and coat with paste wax). The same can be done with the frame, but you don't want to get oil in the stock, so removing the wood first is best.

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