doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Jug choking

If you wanted a muzzleloading double gun, with cylinder bored muzzles, choked ...... who would you send it to? Orlen?

Thanks, SRH

I'd send it to Mike and see if he could put in permanent choke tubes.

Google Danny Caywood Muzzleloading. He has done 2 muzzleloading shotguns for me. Very pleased.
Dave

I'm sure he probably can, but it is such a nice original 16 ga. that I really hate to do anything to it as drastic as tubes, even permanent ones. But, I would really use it a lot more if it had some choke.

And, with a tapered choke which is smaller at the muzzle than the bore you have the problem of sizing your card wads too small when they pass through the constriction. Then, they are loose in the bore and no good. With a jug choke, however, the muzzle is no smaller than the bore diameter. You just enlarge the bore for a short stretch, then it comes back down to bore diameter. The card wads are not downsized then, they stay bore size.

I've read V M Starr, and he had m/l guns choked that would throw 80% patterns with both barrels. I suppose the limiting factor is wall thickness, but if you consider that .015" choke only reduces wall thickness by .0075", you should be able to improve on a gun's range considerably by jug choking, given that it has ample wall thickness. And, there's not much pressure left for the barrels to contain out there.

Thanks, SRH

I have one breech loading English hammer gun that has about .020 jug choking. It works well. See my PM Stan.

And I have Cyl choked barrels that pattern 100%. My skeet chokes actually pick up a few extra pellets on the way. That Starr guy should do barrels for the trap shooters - he'd make a million$

"ALL" barrels will pattern 100%. Some just have to be patterned a lot closer to the muzzle. As I recall Starr was speaking of the standard 30" circle at 40 yds. If that's your criteria sounds as if you should be doing those barrels for the Trap Shooters. 100% from a cylinder bore "Fantastic" (refined version of BS)

Stan; in full agreement if you have the wall thickness then my choice for a ML'er would be the jug chokes due to the loading factor you mention.

Years ago I read VM's booklet and jug choked a MLing trap gun I made. It works very well. I just did a 1894 Remington and it also patterns just the way I want. For those of you who don't know about Mr. Starr, he won many shoots against modern guns with his muzzle loader. They would shoot at a playing card and see who could get the most BB holes in it. Many times competitors wouldn't shoot if he was in the game that day. Now a days it's quicker and a whole lot easier to put in replaceable chokes. It would be nice if a certain Dr. would refrain from commenting if he doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe you don't know everything and could possible learn something here. Paul

Hope springs eternal, Paul. I'll keep on the lookout for the revelation.

I an only reiterate that if the guy is that fantastic he has a market out there that will make him a fortune.

"The Muzzle Loading Shotgun: It's Care and Use" was written in the 60s and is available from Cornell Pubs
https://www.gunauction.com/buy/10206346
He also published "The Muzzle Loading Shotgun: It's Care and Repair"

Starr advertised shotgun boring in Guns Magazine in 1961
http://gunsmagazine.com/1961issues/G0161.pdf

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/starr.html
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/starr2.html

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=224471&page=all

OK - - - I'm convinced. If it's written down or you can find it on the internet it must be true.

Such a cynic

A.J. Aubrey listing in the 1908 Sears catalog:
"Shooting qualities- As before explained, the shooting qualities of these guns are unequaled for long distance killing, long range shooting, for penetration, pattern or target. Both barrels are full choke bore, so firmly constructed that unlike other guns, there is no recoil or kicking. That which in other guns goes into recoil in the A J Aubrey gun goes to give greater force to the shot."

There was no internet when Starr published his booklet and other articles. Drew, the guy that wrote the add for Meriden guns must have also been a used car salesman. How could you not want one ? Thanks for the old literature, it's always nice to read.

I only have experience with one jog choke that was cut by Nick Makinson in Canada long before I even dreamed of becoming a smith. He did a fine job. Gun was a two barrel set, restocked to a ridiculously long LOP before I knew better by our very own Doug Mann. I sold it to a board member from Montana. Best of luck with it Stan.

Caywood's website says in bold print that he does not jug choke damascus guns.

One down.

SRH

Lefever Arms Co stated they "Originated & Perfected" the taper system of boring. It appears the ad writer for Sears/Meriden may have been reading LAC catalogs & then went just a "Notch" higher. LAC only guaranteed 75% patterns "With all Sizes of Shot". All of the "Taper Chokes" I have had opportunity to measure were a continuous taper for the length of "The Choke" not the length of the barrel. Full choke on my Lefevers run around 4", which is longer than most Conical/Parallel chokes. A late (1946) L C Smith drawing shows a cone length for the choke of 1 9/16" & a parallel of 1", thus a total length of 2 9/16".
Note that in a LAC catalog with price list dated Jan 1, 1889 they stated their full choke would place 75% of all sizes of "Drop Shot" from #8 to FF in a 30" circle at 40 yds. They were already using the Taper Choke at that date.

As there was no mention of barrel type I passed along Caywood for reference. Both my ML are fluid steel. What age of ML are we talking of please? Thanks,
Dave

Physics defying magical barrels lead me to believe that P.T. Barnum was closely associated with the shooting community. To believe that any market valued characteristic would remain secret or undiscovered but by one person is so naive as to beggar description.
I have some pills that change water into gasoline if you have the magic beans to use in the incantation.
The gasoline can as well be used for a bore cleaner that will increase pattern density by 23.7% in certain barrel steels.

No problem, Dave. It is a percussion Manton with London fine twist barrels. Unbelievable condition. Not even any pitting around the nipples. Shows almost no use.

SRH

I had an invisible choke put in one of mine to bring it from cyl to about .010. It works great and really invisible. I had Briley do it about 10 yrs ago.

It is well noted I did not state I "Believed" that Lefever's taper choke would produce 75% patterns with all sizes of Drop Shot, no lees, from #8 through FF.
Also I have shot various Lefevers for the past 49 years & have noted no particular reduction in recoil resulting from that taper choke.
I do not actually recall Drew saying he particularly believed the Meriden Hype.
We both simply noted what the catalogs of the day said.
In much more recent times "over-boring" has received much press. It has been stated that increasing the bore diameter reduces the friction thus allowing for higher velocities while simultaneously reducing recoil. I didn't buy that Hype either.

Stan - Your description sounds like you found a real winner!! Have enjoyed ML Shotguns for many years. Have fun with yours and I hope you find the loads that give you the patterns needed Best,
Dave

Miller, I think the Lefever fully tapered boring info was published in a Lefever Newsletter. I had two guns which had bores tapered from the breech to the muzzle. One was a D M Lefever crossbolt Optimus and the other was a D M Lefever crossbolt 5B. I never shot either gun.

Thanks, Dave. it was a gift from a friend who hunted deer on my place for many years. He and I were both m/l rifle hunters and competitors for a long time. I would be very pleased to be able to get IC, or a bit tighter, patterns out of it. Maybe.

SRH

Stan - I have a W&C Scott very early 10 bore cylinder bores that I could get IC patterns with. I used shot buffer with the load. 3 card wads no fiber wads with 2 over-shot wads. Used Swiss 1 1/2F powder which I think kept pressures down and not blow patterns. Fun gun and turned more than one head while pheasant hunting :}:}
Dave

Daryl;
Yes I recall reading that report. As I recall though there was a point or so where the bore dropped in diameter by a thousandth or two. The main choking was still concentrated in the last approximately 4" of the bore.
The Ad says it is tapered from "Breech" to Muzzle". I personally take this as they are saying the choke is a constant taper all the way down the barrel.
The 1908 Meriden ad Drew posted reads very much the same.
Upon reading of the extent of the bore reduction on those guns reported in the newsletter I was immediately impressed with the fact it could have just as easily been from uncorrected reamer wear as by design.
Since you said you "Had" those two guns so choked I presume you no longer have them. Did you by chance record their bore diameters at intervals along their length. Would have loved to see those dimensions & to have seen a pattern test on them. Things which I have read in the past state that for choke to work it "Must" occur at the muzzle & that a barrel with a constant taper down its full length would produce essentially a Cylinder pattern.

Discussion of choke length and "taper choke"
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=466257#Post466257

My old Damascus Boss hammer gun is jug choked. Supposedly it will pattern SK/IC. I am going to pattern it as soon as it comes back from stocking with the lightest possible RST loads. I had it checked over by Mr. Merrington who pronounced it sound despite the removal of material from the muzzle area.