doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Rusted shut

Trying to see what can be done with an 1894 Elsie barn find that's rusted shut. Good wood, 32" damascus, Grade 2. Parts of coming off ok with some Kroil and gentle coaxing, except for the top tang screw and trigger guard screw. If the wood can be removed without damaging it, it will turn out nice, bit the trigger guard's got to come off for that to happen. So far Kroil and heat. Any suggestions beyond repeated use of those two things?

Thanks.

drill press or mill works best for me. Chuck up a bit and use the quill to keep downward pressure so it does not walk out. I have never had decent luck with penetrating oil on screws rusted into wood. They seem to become one with the wood around them and when removed you end up plugging the wood and making new screws. I just did two in a vintage British muzzleloader that had rusted into the stock over the last 150 plus years. I ended up having to mill out one of those because the rusted screw broke off. Best of luck.
Steve

A soldering iron held to the screw will increase capillary action to get lubricant to suck down into the screws.

When I work on old things that are super corroded, heating and soaking are just part of getting things apart.

You may end up suspending the entire shotgun, wood above the electrolyte, vertically in an electrolytic bath for a week or more at low current.

If there is one thing I could say with fervor,

HASTE MAKES WASTE

So, go slow.

There are plenty of examples of rusted old guns being de-rusted, disassembled, and refurbished.

Thanks. It would help if I used the right terms. I did have some trouble getting the buttplate screws out of the stock, but they came out eventually. No trouble with screws in wood. The big trigger plate screw is the bear.

The gun has potential, and I'll try to improve my patience skills.

I am not patient.

So, in an effort to overcome my natural inclinations, I built a procedure that I never vary from, for disassembling old stuff.

I force myself to do these steps in order, on every disassembly.

YMMV of course.

1) I take a nylon brush to the bolt or screw, and get the crud off it.
2) I look to see what kind of fastener it is.
I take a welders pick, and carefully scratch all the crud out of the slot, staying away from the top edge of the slot.
3) I fit a bit to the slot, both for thickness and width.
I want full bearing across the slot.
Quite commonly I grind a bit of proper thickness to proper width. Costs about a quarter.

4) I tap the bit into the slot with a small hammer.
This is to break the microscopic corrosion within the threads.
5) I add a penetrant drop to the screw.

6) Now I TIGHTEN the screw a tiny amount.
7) Now I begin (with plenty of downward pressure) often using my drill press to do so, to work the screw back and forth until it will back out completely.

If I cannot feel any movement at step 6 or 7, I heat the screw head with a soldering iron. (Lock plate or firing pin screws)
On a hand pin, I may heat the tip that goes through the top strap.

Every bit of that is an internal struggle.

But, breaking off a tiny screw, down in a hole, within a 100 year old gun, quintuples the amount of time required to remove the screw, let alone make a new one.

As I said, HASTE MAKES WASTE

and it is frustrating being afraid of breaking off a screw, and having to heat/soak, heat/soak, 4-5 times to get one to budge.

As I said, it is a struggle against my inclination.
And, making myself go against my own grain, is an exercise in self control that I reap other benefits from.

I hear you, Sir. Same inclinations, and same pursuit to grow. What's helping me this time is that the wood will be excellent if it comes off unbroken. Once that happens, the rest will be soaked in a can of Kroil until the barrel and frame want to separate from each other.

Clapper Zapper's advice is excellent. In addition I sometimes make a bit to fit the screw an impact driver( the type used with a hammer) and "shock" the screw both ways. This should be next to last resort, before drilling it out. Extreme care must be used, because these devices can generate enough force to destroy the screw.
Mike

would be nice to see a picture of it B4 its destroyed.....

I'm assuming the screw that is giving you problems is a machine screw threaded into the action, and not a wood screw. As you have been previously advised, patience is the single most important tool you have for removing a stuck screw without damage.

All of the advice about using a perfectly fitted screwdriver bit, soldering iron for heat, use of a drill press or mill for perfectly straight downward pressure, and the impact driver as a last resort before drilling out, etc. is all correct. But I've said it before and will say it again... there are much better penetrating oils than Kroil out there. Kroil has let me down many times, and I have found that even with prolonged multi-day soaks on screws that aren't severely rusted, it doesn't penetrate very far down into the threads. The people who think Kroil is the best are living very sheltered lives. I still use Kroil because I have over a gallon of it, but only for stuff that isn't bad, or as an assembly lube. I have no less than 20 different brands of penetrating oils in my shop right now. I went a little overboard attempting to find a good replacement for Cabot's Tasgon, which is no longer produced because it contained creosote. I still haven't found anything to equal it, and I have about a quart that has to last the rest of my life. I found a full unopened pint of Tasgon at a car parts swap meet a couple years ago, and it made my whole day. I've had good results with Burlite, Zep 45, and Mouse Milk. I also like the home brew of 50% ATF and 50% acetone, but it has to be frequently reapplied because the acetone evaporates quickly. Another one that has worked well for me on small fine thread screws is pure Oil of Wintergreen.

But that patience thing is the most important if you are not a gunsmith who needs to get a gun repaired and returned to the customer in a week. Even with my last resort Tasgon, I have soaked and reapplied for as much as 6 months, and then the stubborn screw suddenly broke free and came right out. Wrapping a part with Saran Wrap often helps to keep your penetrating oil from evaporating during prolonged soaks. It helps to have a lot of other projects to work on so that you aren't tempted to apply too much force or start drilling. And if you ever find a can of this stuff at a flea market or garage sale, buy it!

A chunk of toilet ring works great too. The ingredients evidently have plenty of capillary action when liquid.

I'm working on a screw, down in a hole, today, 1/8" across, that hasn't been removed since 1920. If ever. Heat and tap Heat and tap heat and tap.

Oddly, I've passed on plenty of old barn guns in the past. I wonder whatever happens to them. Crusty brown things. Chicken coops are the worst. I specifically remember a 32-20 Winchester one time. Oh well, I don't want them alll anyway.

I don't think destroying it will be necessary.

That gun is a perfect candidate for sonic cleaning, and electrolytic rust removal.

Electrolysis does not remove engraving or wallow out screw holes.

I can't wait to see it brought back to life

In the past when I was an apprentice besides making the Tea by gallon one of the other chores was to make penetrating oil that was used by Engineers all over the works. Now I am not saying it was the best or any such other recommendations only that it worked well and is extremely cheap to make up, it was so cheap that there where buckets of the stuff doted over the factory each with a lid. If there were a lot of sized parts and the object was small enough it was put in one of the buckets and left there for as long as it takes.
Now I still make this up for use in my own workshop and it uses only three ingredients which are � pint of Paraffin Oil (Kerosene) � pint of cellulose paint thinners (the cheap stuff, the type for cleaning spray guns) and the last ingredient is a large spoon full (about 2 ounces) of Molybdenum Auto grease stirred in. The cellulose thinners do evaporate quickly so you do need to re-apply it. But if you can put the part in and leave it soaking you do get good quick results.

Anyone tried the spray-on freezing fluid? I have a can of CRC Freeze-off on my shelf - it can work well as a supplement to heating and penetrating oil.

It is unloaded isn't it?,,

With that one,,I'd suspend the action,,wood and all in your favorite penetrating oil concoction and let it sit for a while..
Muzzle down in a tube works well. No need to sink the stock any further than necessary past the metal work,

Yes the wood is going to soak it up as well,,but wood can be cleared of oil with simple whiting powder,,though it does take some time and patience.
You can use the often mentioned acetone & alcohol soln's and sun baked black plastic bags filled w/ kitty litter too.
But at least finish up with whiting powder mixed to a paste w/ alcohol and let set on the surface for a few days each time till absolutely no more oil weeps to the surface.

The wood & metal look rusted together. They need some help separating and especially on the flimsy LCS stock the last thing you want to see is part of the stock separating and stuck to the sides of the action tang or trigger guard as you pull them apart.
Everything inside and out will get the oil treatment and those screws will better respond to some heat afterwards to help w/removal.

There will be plenty to do w/the metal while the wood is repeatedly coated and brushed clear of the whiting as it soaks the oil from the stock.

Good luck on the project. Looks like somethings I'd do!

Yep, unloaded.

I didn't think about sticking it in a tube, muzzle down. I'll look into that. Not sure how much penetrant I can afford right this moment, but a tight fitting tube will keep the volume fairly small perhaps.

Use something simple & cheap like kerosene and a bit of mineral spirits/paint thinner.
It'll work about as well as anything especially when soaked in it.

I use PVC pipe with a PVC end cap cemented on with the PVC pipe glue for a dunk tube. Use another end cap for a cover for storage if you're not dumping it out right away.
I use the same set up for damascus etch and it's been secure for many years.

After soaking and trying heat I've had good luck putting the gun into my chest freezer. Cold causes metal to contract and helps break the rust bond. Repeat if needed.

I just hung parts from a very brown 1875 Parker in the tank I use for cleaning my skeet tubes. It is full of Acetone and ATF.
Rust came off with ease and parts were clean!

bill

What ratio of Acetone to ATF, Bill. I've still got wood attached. Any problem with your solution with that in mind?

Bill, did you ever get the barrels off that Elsie?...Geo

Not yet. Still soaking. Looking around town for some freezing spray to try.

Success. Will post some pictures when I pick a new place to host them.

The large screw under the top lever was the problem child. I still out the head and pounded the remnant shaft to press out the trigger plate. Wood came off without damage.

Despite to amount of ancient rust and crud in this thing, the issue keeping it shut was the coupler. It had broken in half, and would effect the bolt when the top lever moved, but not enough to open the gun.

All that's been lost has been the top screw, coupler, coupler screw, and trip spring, so far. The firing pin bushings are covered in worse of it, and breach faces are eaten up. The barrel is done. The top rib could be fixed well enough, and the damascus is nice, but the bore are horribly cratered.

Tremendous effort Bill! Sometimes you just have to call the time of death and part it out..Geo

Thanks Geo. Here are the pictures if anyone's interested in seeing them.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxDS9xuvHqIJLTAzanotMWJhY0U

Bill, is that top-rib junction gold?...Geo

No Sir. No precious metal, just broken.

Nice set of pictures, thanks for showing them.