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#484536 07/02/17 11:44 AM
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bonny Offline OP
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What do nitre bluing salts actually contain ? I want some but cannot find anyone in Ireland who stocks them, postal restrictions means i cannot buy them from the UK.

So can i go to a chemists and ask for whatever chemicals these salts contain ?

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Bonny the big clue is in the name "Nitre" this being Nitrate and many Nitrate salts will work though the common one's are Potassium or Sodium Nitrate. They can be used as purchased but there is one big drawback if you spill any of these pure hot melted oxidising salts on to any thing other than stone brick or concreate it will burst in to flame that also includes your good self. Some mixtures have other salts added to reduce the bursting into flame like Sodium Hydroxide, Sodium Chlorate if it is spilt, but they will not stop the 3rd degree burns you will have if you spill the hot salts on yourself. Just like to say that Sodium and Potassium Nitrate also Sodium Chlorate are used in the manufacture of DIY explosives and you do live in a country that asking for such things in a Chemist's shop could raise more than an eyebrow if you get my meaning. Best try Garden or Farm supply companies rather than your local Chemist


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I don't know a thing about what's available in Ireland, but if it were in the US, I'd check at a garden shop for 'stump killer'. Damascus explains what ingredient to look for on the label.

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bonny Offline OP
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Damascus, true enough, anything "nitrate" seems to be banned, fertilizers, gardening products etc. I suppose i will have to accept rust or caustic bluing, but nitre blue looks great on screw heads.

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Bonny there is a method to use for getting that look of Nitre bluing on small parts like screws etc. Though I feel that in your situation it may be just as impossible to obtain as the rest of the chemicals. You need to bring the parts you want to blue to a good polished finish, then dip them in a 50% Nitric Acid and water solution for about sixty seconds then heat slowly in a flame until you obtain that blue colour you want.


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damascus,
That works well, for me, without the nitric acid solution. I just dip in oil when the color satisfies me. For other parts, I stop the color at "straw" as desired. This is very convenient, when repairing only one screw head, or replacing only one.
Mike

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Originally Posted By: Der Ami
damascus,
That works well, for me, without the nitric acid solution. I just dip in oil when the color satisfies me. For other parts, I stop the color at "straw" as desired. This is very convenient, when repairing only one screw head, or replacing only one.
Mike


That has worked well for me, too, Mike.

SRH


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Don't know what is available in Ireland, but the garden shop might have niter fertilizer for the lady's roses.
It is only about 16% nitrogen, but seems to work at about 6-700°F.
Chuck

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Nitre bluing is nothing more than heat or temper bluing. All the Nitre salts do is to provide a “bath” held to a specific temperature so that the temperature is uniform around the part (no hot spots or cooler spots). But this can be easily accomplished with a flame or in a high temp oven. Potassium nitrate is a good medium because of its working range (300-1000 deg F) and it’s very soluble in water so it’s easy to clean up.

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Nitre bluing usually refers to a molten bath of potassium nitrate or saltpeter, as Mike Hunter and damascus have pointed out. The working temperatures are very high, and extreme caution must be used. Even simply heating a pot of solidified potassium nitrate can cause an eruption of extremely hot molten salts as pressure builds up beneath the still solid surface. It is recommended to leave a large screw or bolt in the bath to then later remove when reheating in order to provide a vent hole.

Saltpeter used to be available in grocery stores in the spice section, because it was used in pickling and food preservation. Some stump removers do use a high concentration of potassium nitrate, but you have to read the label.

In case the nitre bluing salts you were inquiring about were for regular hot salts or hot tank bluing, here is a recipe for homemade bluing salts. The Brownell's "Gunsmith Kinks" books have a lot of very useful information on all types and methods of bluing.

5 pounds 100% sodium Hydroxide (100% Lye)
4 pounds Ammonium Nitrate (Sodium Nitrate may be used instead)
1 gal. Distilled water

This is a very caustic mix that is used in a steel tank only.
The Lye must be pure 100% like "Red Devil" or the kind used for soapmaking
It is for steel bluing only and it will not Blue Winchester 94 Receivers.It works Identical to Brownells Bluing salts.
Temperature range is around 260 to 275 deg F for the boil to blue the parts. Hot caustic bluing is also very dangerous as the solution will cause very nasty chemical burns or blindness if it splatters onto your skin or eyes. Learn all you can before trying to do it, and wear appropriate safety gear.


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It has been my experience that bringing to temp and maintaining temp isolated from the atmosphere gives the colors much better longevity: i.e. in a bath of melted lead or nitre. Nitre is clear so the color changes can be seen.
This is very important to me.

I believe some form of oxidation takes place. I have tested all forms of metal finishes I've done over decades in actual field condition, anecdotal for sure but custom guns I've applied the finishes and done the actual field usage. Foremost my Hughes/Fox I've shot for nearly 25 years.

All my pics died with Photobucket. I've written columns with color pics in the past for Shooting Sportsman and they are in both of my Double Guns books. I use Brownell's Nitre Salts and helped them write the original instructions but asked to have my name removed from a procedure requiring 600*+.

I was not in on the final formulation but I know it is not pure saltpeter because it melts at a much lower temperature. Pure saltpeter melts at very close to 600*F.
I've used both "stump killer" and SA bat shit in the distant past and found each to be incredibly dirty.

Last edited by SDH-MT; 07/03/17 05:50 PM.
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The traditional Birmingham bluing tank formula as used for decades.

3 Pound of Caustic Soda (Sodium Hydroxide)
5 Pound of Sodium Nitrate
3 ounces of Sodium Chloride
17 ounces of Trisodium Phosphate
10 pints (UK) Distilled Water.
Bring to the boil to use.
Put a mark on the inside of the tank when first filled and keep adding water to keep the same level as the boiling reduces the water content.
This formula produces that fine Birmingham made gun deep bluish black colour, if the solution looses its strength just add a little Sodium Nitrate to bring it back up to strength.
My personal experience of this bluing mixture is that it is not too sensitive to moderate temperature swings as long it is kept boiling.

***** Do not try to use this to blue vintage side by side shotgun barrels, the liquid temperature is higher than the soft solder melting point that hold's the barrels together and the ribs on. Rust bluing only for them!!!!


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The traditional Birmingham bluing tank formula as used for decades.



That formula is for hot dip bluing, not NITRE BLUING.

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SWDH you are not wrong and where did I say it was!!
Please read what I say and not run off at a tangent with what you think I said.
Kieth's Formula also is not Nitre Bluing so put your rattle back in the pram.
You may be what you say you are but you are not the fount of all knowledge either. Or do you put vintage double gun barrels in nitre bluing tank? Because it is obvious to the average wood carver from what I had written it was not Nitre bluing.
Oh just to get the playing field level I write and can take photographs but I have found that I can make more cash by sorting out the mistakes of other gun orientated people, So impressed with you I am not!!!


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Hi Bonny,
Can you find the items on the popular auction site as food grade for meat curing ?
Failing that, a clock repairer or horology supplies firm may be able to help you out.


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bonny Offline OP
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Thanks for all the help. I think i'll try the rust and caustic bluing, though i might give the lead bath a try, i know lead baths are good for spring tempering if you have not got a proper ht oven.

The problem in Ireland is a huge amount of chemicals that are available easily everywhere else, are difficult or impossible to find here.

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Heat bluing screws in a lead pot is exactly the effect you get as tempering a spring.

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BTW, if you take a little more time and harden the screws first, then polish and heat blue( either with torch or lead pot), it will make them more resistant to screw driver damage( not proof from it however).
Mike

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http://watchesbysjx.com/2015/02/explaine...f-patience.html

I've not tried this way using brass filings on a hot plate but it may be of interest.


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Twenty plus years ago I was using pure Potassium Nitrate (Saltpeter), it was easy to get, any major pharmacy had it, you could also get it from a Vet, or order it from a scientific supply house. Think I had my pharmacy back then order me 5 lbs. of it.
I’m not sure what’s in Brownells stuff, I imagine something to make it useless for black power manufacture (Charcoal, Sulfur and Saltpeter)

lead might be a PITA, trying to remove it.

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I use the Brownells salts for parts too big to fit into my old electric lead bullet melting pot., trigger guards, ect. Seems to work OK

But for a handfull of screws to blue or drawing back springs I still use the lead pot.
Heats up quickly, easy to maintain the needed temp w/the simple control knob and using my elderly but still accurate high temp thermometer.
Wire up the part(s) and keep them in the lead for a few minutes for the blue to appear. Don't let the part touch the sides or bottom of the lead pot.

It'll want to float in the lead so it takes a little rigging & bending of the wire attached to a vise grip lying next to the pot to allow it to sit submerged by itself for the needed time. You can hand hold each one of course just as easily but that gets tedious for me w/a number of small parts to do..
Shake off excess lead when they come out.

Some lead will stick on occasion especially where it's attached to the wire but that peels right off when cooled & taken apart.
Same thing when doing springs.

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bonny Offline OP
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Thanks Kutter.

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Mike,
How are you hardening screws before nitre bluing?


Dennis
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bonny Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: El Garro
http://watchesbysjx.com/2015/02/explaine...f-patience.html

I've not tried this way using brass filings on a hot plate but it may be of interest.


Interesting article Garro, i might try that.

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The clock and watch screw article is really good but it is I feel aimed at clock people Like my self who make clocks. So I would like to fill in the little but important things that have been left out. Firstly clock and watch screws are made from high carbon steel like drill rod, this of course takes to heat bluing perfectly. Now a top class maker polishes the screws then coats the screws with a mix of water and Fullers earth before heating to cherry red and quenching, this clay stops the steel surface from oxidising and loosing its fine polish. Then the screws are re polished then heated again to obtain that clockmakers blue. But the article did not say that the blue colour is a type of oxide and the slower you bring the steel up to the blue colour the thicker this layer becomes and the finer the blue colour is.
If you are using basic steel screws and want that clock blue colour the standard method is to case harden the screws first by using a product like Kasenit then polish then flame blue.

Hope this is of further help.


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