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Argo44 Offline OP
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Ted, thanks for the Darne background and you are indeed the Darne expert. And thanks GLS for the Darne SN list. Here's a question for Ted. There are two Darnes pictured above with SN's that are very close.
-- C692, a 12 gauge with a chamber stamp 6.5".
-- C643, a 20 gauge with a chamber stamp "70".

The two are post 1910 because of the letter/number SN per GLS's chart; C692 with the cm chamber stamp would be between 1912 to 1910 assuming 1912 was indeed the changeover year in Saint Etienne from cm to mm, could it be that both of these gun barrels were completed in 1912? Perhaps the chamber size wasn't stamped until the barrel was mated to a gun, which might explain why the 20 ga has a lower SN but has a chamber stamp in mm?

It would also mean that Darne built some 2,700 guns between 1910 and 1912. Is this possible?

Last edited by Argo44; 07/22/17 07:03 PM.

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Argo,
Thanks, but, I consider myself only a student of the Darne. There is much to know, and much that cannot, from this juncture, be discovered.

In the early 20th century era, I don't believe Darne guns were serial numbered from a perspective of the number being useful for anyone outside of the production team/factory that built them. There wasn't a strict legal requirement that a sequential number be applied to finished guns in that era.
I believe the number was mostly useful for keeping production guns from having their pieces end up in guns they weren't fitted to. Although, I have demonstrated with my Halifax, that having a number on a part doesn't promise the numbers will all be the same, when everything is finished, for whatever reason that might be!

I'm sorry, but, I don't have an explaination and neat answer to your question. Truthfully, I don't believe anyone does. We don't know what the management of the factory was thinking or doing in 1910-1912. The French are great record keepers, but, twice they were occupied by Germans that forced their record keeping upon them. Did the factory records survive from that era? Hard to say, but, for what it is worth I spent a day in the larger public library in Lyon, and could discover almost nothing about the factory, the work, or the guns. Lots of stuff on Regis, who was a local hero of sorts.
Without a ledger of some sort, documenting what was going on, circa 1910-1912, we are pretty much in the same boat with the guys who pursue smaller American makers, Baker, Norwich, etc. I think it is important to only document what can actually be documented, so as to avoid "lore" which, is what existed when I first got into sliding breech guns about 30 years ago.

I'm sorry. When and if we can find some documentation, we will discover more. I am amazed at how much you have tracked down on Didier thus far.


Best,
Ted

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Argo44 Offline OP
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I've just gone through 500 ads on Naturabuy.fr. and have come up with some more food for thought. For the few interested in French guns, I'll make three posts on findings (and it's probably already common knowledge somewhere):

1). Didier-Drevet continued to date his barrels at least through 1924 - probably much later (and this was after DD combined with others including Darne to create SIFARM). (example to be posted)

2). Not all French guns were chambered for 65 cm during this period. I've found a lot of French guns chambered for 70, 75, 80 mm (7, 7.5, 8 cm) from 1890-1930. and it looks like 1870-1890 more than a few of the guns I've looked at were chambered for 7.5 cm or 75mm. (examples to be posted)

3). Saint-Etienne guns up to about 1890 appear to be chambered in mm.. So they changed to cm about 1890 and back to mm about 1912. This 1890? change is very possibly the visible evidence of the change-over from the CGS system (centimeter, gram, second) to MKS system (meter, kilogram, second) in 1889 referred to by Wildcattle. This 1889 date is as clear a date-marker as the 1912 date.

and an observation:

4) I can find no evidence that Parisian or Belgian guns ever used cm for chamber measurements - if it's in cm - it's likely Stephanois.

Last edited by Argo44; 07/27/17 10:57 PM.

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1). Didier Drevet barrel dated 1924; 1924 - 2?871 (or 1?871 ??); gun number 1080 for gun labeled "Excelsior." (per other ads for Excelsior's in the period which are chronologically serial numbered apparently). 10 gauge ( 19.2); chamber: 75mm (chambered in mm)(3"). modèle EXCELSIOR .
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-Artisanal-Francais-occasion-Calibre-10-item-2824879.html






Excelsior is a well-known brand created by DD and SIFARM about 1924. Here is a gushing publicity for it. It's funny - if you read the ad on naturabuy.fr above - the guy doesn't know what is Excelsior, has not looked at his gun and claims it was possibly exhibited in Paris in 1900 - odd for a guy asking 2800 Euros for the arm)(research shows he bought it in 2015 at another auction). I'm starting to think some gun dealers are like carpet merchants.

http://fcm25.canalblog.com/archives/2015/05/22/32098981.html


Last edited by Argo44; 07/27/17 11:24 PM.

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Argo,
Are you sure it was not Francisque Darne that was part of SIFARM?

My post war F. Darne catalog is marked SIFARM, but, I have never had a Darne catalog that indicated they were part of that organization.


Best,
Ted

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Argo44 Offline OP
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Ted, you're right...F.Darne. My bad. I wasn't really researching Darne or SIFARM.


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Argo44 Offline OP
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Per above: 3). Saint-Etienne guns up to about 1889 appear to be chambered in mm.. So they changed to cm about 1889 and back to mm about 1912. This 1889? change is very possibly the visible evidence of the change-over from the CGS system (centimeter, gram, second) to MKS system (meter, kilogram, second) in 1889 referred to by Wildcattle. This 1889 date is as clear a date-marker as the 1912 date. Here are a few examples:

-- notice that there is a gun chambered for 75mm and one for 80mm in this group.

1). from first page: 1878 Didier-Drevet fusil (damascus) date on the gun (not the barrel). 18.6 (11 gauge); 65mm Chambers. (Date on the gun).
http://www.tircollection.com/t18880-un-beau-fusil-de-chasse-sobre-et-elegant






2). Pre-1889 Fusil Darne rotary gun (the ad claims the gun is 1892 - this can’t be since the chambers are measured in mm; -- unless of couse as Ted pointed out previously the barrels were made pre 1889 and then mated to the gun several years later). 16.8 (17 gauge); 65 mm chambers; Ronchard Cizeron barrels. (makes me want to ask that Kansas dealer, who has two of these, for photos of their barrel flats - how are they marked - in cm or mm? and who made the barrels?)
http://www.naturabuy.fr/FUSIL-DARNE-MODEL-ROTARY-1892-item-3675740.html



3). 1885-1889 Manufance under lever hammer gun; 75mm chambers; 17.4 (14 gauge). Manufance was founded in 1885; the chamber is in mm thus 1889 or earlier.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-...em-3799057.html



4). Pre 1885. Saint Etienne under lever hammer gun Martinier Collin; 19.6 (8 guage - ad says 10 gauge but I think 10 gauge is 19.2); 80mm chambers; (Martinier and Collin founded the company which was sold in 1885; Their assistants then bought the company which ultimately became Manufrance.);
http://www.naturabuy.fr/rare-fusil-juxtapose-chiens-calibre-10-saint-etienne-item-2376357.html



5) 31). Pre 1889: Artisanal Saint-Etienne under lever hammer gun; 18.2; 65 mm chambered in mm. Identified as pre 1889 by the use of mm.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-item-3475156.html



6). Because I mentioned two pre-1889 guns from Manufrance and Matinier-Collin above, I'll expand the story for history's sake with this gun and a translation. Chambered in cm, it is post 1889 - and since it's proofed for "PT" probably 1900-1912 - but has a relevant story to it: -- edit: Well there's an obvious problem. Blanchon was Manufrance at the time this gun was made.- i.e. chambered in cm 1889-1912 So--the "Blanchon" on this gun can't be Pierre Blanchon. More examples of the carpet merchant nature of gun dealers - wonder if his history is correct?

Post 1889 Saint-Etienne under lever Blanchon: 18.2; 6.5 cm chambers;
http://www.naturabuy.fr/ANCIEN-FUSIL-BLACHON-SAINT-ETIENNE-COLLECTION--item-448377.html

Pierre Blachon arquebusier de métier à St Etienne fait la connaissance peu avant 1885 de Etienne Mimard fils d'armurier venu se perfectionner dans l'arquebuserie à St Etienne après un séjour dans le métier à Liège. Donc ils font connaissance étant tous deux employés à la Sté Martinier- Collin armurier à St Etienne. Cette société en 1885 est mise en vente et les deux hommes s'associent et achètent cette entreprise qui devient la Manufacture Française d'Armes et cycles de St Etienne, Etienne Mimard en est le Directeur général Président du Conseil d'Administration et Pierre Blachon Vice président et c'est lui qui sera le concepteur technique des premiers modèles produits par la Manufacture avec notamment l'invention du fameux Robust dont la commercialisation sera lancée en 1913 et qui en fera le fusil de chasse certainement le plus vendu au monde avec prés de 1 million d'exemplaires.
Pierre Blachon n'aura pas le temps de connaitre l'immense succès de son "Robust" puisqu'il meurt en 1914.


Pierre Blanchon gun maker in St Etienne a little before 1885 met Etienne Mimard, son of a gunsmith/gun dealer who had learned the gunmaking trade in St Etienne after an apprenticeship in Liege. They both were employees at Ste Martinier-Collin, gun makers in St Etienne. In 1885 this firm was put up for sale and the two men went together to buy it, It became La Manufacture Francaise d’Armes et Cycles de St Etienne (Manufrance), Etienne Mimard becoming the Director General, President of the corporate board and Pierre Blanchon Vice President. It was he who came up with the technical conception of the first models produced by the manufacturer with notably the invention of the famous Robust, which was first launched in 1913 and which became the most sold shotgun in the world with nearly 1 million examples. Pierre Blanchon did not have time to know the huge success of his “Robust” because he died in 1914.


Last edited by Argo44; 07/29/17 11:34 PM.

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Argo,
Wonderful history. Very sad that Blanchon died in 1914. Fransisque Darne, who held several unique patents related to civilian firearms, and modifications to sliding breech designs, died in 1917. There was a patent photo floating around the 'net of a sliding breech gun with removable sidelocks and more conventional hammers and springs, as opposed to strikers, with patent assignment to Francisque Darne. I have not seen evidence that this design was ever produced.
It would appear that both men were lost to history in the prime of their lives, and, no doubt left French firearms design and production the poorer for it.


Best,

Ted

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Argo44 Offline OP
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Just experimenting with date identification. I picked this gun from Naturabuy.fr because the seller is a bit obstreperous and some write-ins in a manner uncharacteristically rude for the French, have challenged his identification:
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Cal-10-Manufacture-Armes-Cycles-Saint-Etienne-item-2206991.html

The ad says it is a Manufrance Ideal Jones underlever hammer gun tested for PP Pyroxillees powder; SN 19416; Cal 10; "80 mm chambers." Barrels are “Ideal” Hercule 3 Palmes demi-bloc. The ad claims that it was only available by special order overseen by the director of the workshop himself and would date from the period 1906-1914. In subsequent queries the seller mentions it was stamped Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint- Etienne. He blurs some pictures and cuts others off - Barrel flats can't be read, etc).

As a test case, here is my analysis: It may date from 1892-1900 - probably closer to 1900;
— Manufrance - must be post 1885
— Ideal — must be post 1888
— Chambered in cm — must be1889 to 1912 (third picture of the forestock shows “Cal 10, 7.5 - belying his claim the chambers are 80mm).
— It is stamped with the “Cycles” address so must be post 1892.
— Proofed PP so probably pre-1900.

The problem comes with the SN - have no idea how many guns Manufrance made from its creation in 1885 but 19,000 guns in 15 years (assuming they were consecutively numbered - which may not be) seems like a lot. And I wonder about the "Cal 10": 10 gauge St-Etienne guns I've looked at over the last few months are usually labeled 19.2 or thereabouts, not "Cal 10." Might be on the barrel flats of course.

Any observations? Am I close? (I’m still learning).












Last edited by Argo44; 07/31/17 08:19 PM.

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Argo,
I believe only French powder PT is truly smokeless. The earlier powders PJ, PM, and PS were considered semi-smokeless.
The "Powder Pyroxles" may indicate proof with powder T, for sure 1900 or later.
Just a guess, as anything I know about Manufrance I learned by accident, trying to find out something about a Darne.


Best,
Ted

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