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Argo44 Offline OP
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Ted in a separate line asked how I could date a Saint-Etienne 16 gauge accurately. I've chosen to start a new line to keep from "jumping the shark" on that one.

I’ve been looking for a early 20th century Saint-Etienne fusil de chasse for some time. French guns are very difficult to date we all agree. Using the usual markers (prizes won, models, catalogs, patents, etc) might get us into the ball park. But there are two items that will definitely narrow down an earl 20th century period piece:
...1) use of cm to denote chambering would mean it was pre-1912? (it would be interesting to find out the exact date this changed from cm to mm): and
...2) Didier-Drevet barrels are dated and have a serial number.

I wonder if there are more examples of dated Stephanois guns? For background (and it's been discussed before ) here are a few dated Didier-Drevet barrels from the internet (reorganized chronologically): -- (images back thanks to jpgbox)

1). 1878 Didier-Drevet fusil (damascus) date on the gun (not the barrel). 65m Chambers.

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

http://www.tircollection.com/t18880-un-beau-fusil-de-chasse-sobre-et-elegant

2). 1900 12 gauge:
Didier-Drevet Acier Mandrine (Mandrel Steel) (Mandrine means "turned on a mandrel or lathe"; un Mandrin is a Mandrel; Mandrine is an adjective modifying the feminine noun Acier) Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 6.5; 1900 - 8971

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=396092&page=all

3) 1904 from a Russian site:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 6.5; 1904 - 11046
http://img.allzip.org/g/1/orig/15625032.jpg

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

4) 1905 Cyrillic site:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume: 1905 - 11604 (unclear)
http://arc.violity.com/ruzhe-didier-drevet-1900-g-12132152

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

5) 1906 16 gauge with 7cm chambers: The is Ed Good’s gun previously posted. I discussed this with Ed and he assured me a chamber gauge showed them to be 2 3/4”. I told him it had to have been rechambered. Then noticed this little “7” on the barrel flats (7cm). It does indeed seem to be a 1906 with 2 3/4” chambers.
Photo deleted: Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels Stamped 17.0; 7; 1906 - 11985

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


6) 1906 Didier-Drevet 12 bore from 1906 with 7cm chambers:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 7; 1906 - 12076

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

7). 1908 Per able2zero, Shotgunworld:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels: 17.0; 6.5; 1908 - 12740
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=223806

8). 1910 12 gauge with chambers labeled 6.5. The seller advertised the gun as having 2 3/4” chambers. I asked him about this - he claimed “6.5” had nothing to with 65mm and the chambers were as advertised. If so, it’s been relieved:
(photo deleted - Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels labeled 18.4; 6.5; 1910 - 13185

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

9). 1918 Didier-Drevet - Skeetz's gun:
Didier-Drevet Eureka Canon Plume barrels; 18.4; 65; 1918 - 14204

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]



There must be some additional info someplace: The French magazine “Armes de Chasse” issue nr 42, Juillet - aot - septembre 2011 had an article under Collection titled Le trio Didier-Drevet.


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Argo,
To begin with, it is Ted, not Tim.

While it is easy to say a Didier barreled gun has a date stamp, it is a much different thing to document that. Further, even if it is a date stamp, what would it represent? It could be the date the barrels were provisionally proofed, the date the barrels were assembled, or the date the gun was final proofed. We really have no way of knowing for sure. There could be YEARS between any of those events, and when the gun reached inventory, and years between when that happened, and when it was sold.

Picture number 6 is a gun I am very familiar with, as it lives in my neighborhood, and I posted a bit about this gun here on the board. It is the wreakage of a high grade Darne that doesn't fit the description of R, V, or P model. The picture you posted is missing the proof stamp, which, was for powder J. 1900 was the year powder T was introduced, but, for at least a few years after that, one could specify powder M, J, S, or T. Hence, we can't even state with authority when a gun was built based on the powder it was proofed with, save the fact that anything proofed with powder T would be post 1900. Further confusing what and when with this gun, is the fact that Regis Darne's offerings were pretty well sorted by 1900, and this gun doesn't appear to be a cataloged model, or, marked with a stamp in reference to grade.

Documenting an exact time of change for the markings 6.5 and 65 could be problematic as well. The proof house in St. Etienne is a literal hive of activity, and the day I was there, there were rack upon rack of modern pump and autoloading barrels being proofed for Verney Carron, among all the other barrels. It would seem to me that the 6.5 mark could have very well been used alongside the 65 mark until it simply wore out and was discarded.They mean the exact same thing. Again, documentation would be wonderful, but, we simply don't have that, yet, and anything else is speculation until we do.
I was very lucky on the day that I visited, as if there had been military contract barrels of any sort in the building, access would not have been granted to me. I would be willing to bet few Americans have toured the facility.

Best,
Ted

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Argo44 Offline OP
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Ted, we ran across the possibility of stockpiled barrels with the EM Reilly's. Some barrels were proofed before 1896 but not mated with a gun until 1901-2. So what you say may be right. In which case logically it would have been the barrel maker Didier-Drevet (DD) doing the stockpiling not the gun maker. ("ring ring - DiD mon cher...do you have a 17.0, 70cm barrel on hand? Great..send it over).

However, having a date on a barrel (and a Serial Number) is better than nothing, especially with the chamber stamps. I suspect knowing the French, that the change from cm to mm was a directive or law and that as such there would have been little slippage. This is Napoleonic bureaucracy at its best. It’s worth looking into.

As for (for example) the Gerest-Berthon for sure it was made 1906 or later. And it was made before the change in the chamber stamp from cm to mm. So to date it it would be fair to say something like this - the barrel was made in 1906 and mated to the gun sometime between 1906 and WWI"? If I could find a Berthon SN later than this gun...it would cut the date down to a couple of years.

And you could add, that at that time at least some French guns were being chambered for 7cm i.e. 2 3/4. (There are two guns on the list with 1906 barrels, Didier-Drivet SN 11985 and SN 12025, one 16ga one 12ga, and one 1907? SN 12537, 12 ga and all have 7cm chambers). At least that”s a start.

And, If more could be found, more markers might come into play. For instance, Berthon Freres registered two patents; for later guns it’d be interesting to see if those were applied to those guns which could date them. I believe that with some detective work (especially with the dates on the DD barrels and their SN's which may or may not have been consecutive), and exploring when the French began to chamber guns for 7cm - 2 3/4 could indeed help narrow down the date of the manufacture of a gun.

This may also apply to other Saint-Etienne gun manufactures...especially if you can sync up the gun serial numbers with the dated barrel SN’s and get a pattern.
For instance, if you can find 10 Darnes with DD barrels - and you have a SN on each Darne, and a dated SN on the barrels...you probably could construct a matrix to hang dates on all of the rest....might not be 100% but it would be better than what we've got. That's pretty much what I did with the Reilly's and it was a real historical trip to do the research.

Gene Williams


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12 gauge both with 65mm chambers

2292 number but no date


19468 number but no date


Mike

Last edited by skeettx; 06/29/17 09:59 PM.

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Argo44 Offline OP
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Both look to be in mm, right? Kind of interesting to look at the SN progression and dates of the DD barrels above - might not mean squat or then it might:
1853? - DD begins to serial number and date his barrels
1878 - ...????; 65 chambered in mm; 18.6; Gun Maker: Didier Fusil; Sn: ?? (damas underlever hammergun)
1885 - ..4922; ??? chambered in mm; 17.0. Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ?? (from page 3)
1900 - ..8975; 6.5 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: Darne; gun sn??
1904 - 11046; 6.5 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ?? gun sn:
1905 - 11604; ??? chambered in ??; 18.4; (unclear); Gun maker: ?? gun sn: ??
1906 - 11985; 7 chambered in cm; 17.0; Gun maker: Gerest Berthon; gun sn
1906 - 12075; 7 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1907?- 12537: 7 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun maker: ??; gun sn: ?? (from next page)
1907 - 12613?; 7 chambered in cm; 18.4; Gun Maker: Geneaux; gun sn: ; (from 4th page)
1908 - 12740; 6.5 chambered in cm; 17.0; Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1910 - 13184; 6.5 chambered in cm; 18.4: Gun Maker: ??; gun sn: ??
1912 - 13689? 65 chambered in mm; 18.4: Note the 1912 shift to mm. (page 4)
1918 - 14204; 65 chambered in mm; 18.4: Gun maker: ?? gun sn: 19488; (Skeetz's gun)(doubt many shotgun barrels were made August 1914-November 1918; in fact yours might have been the first made after Nov 11, 1918? who knows...but just go ahead and claim it's true - the story makes a gun)
no date - 15035; 65? chambered i mm; 18.4: note the lack of a date; (page 4)

DD looks to have been making about 300 barrels a year from 1885 - 1910? With production/sales declining towards WWI - and probably zero 14 Aug 1014- 11 Nov 1918 for obvious reasons.

And on some of those barrels, other SN's are overlaid, possibly from the gun manufacture itself. Match up the DD barrel dates with those SN's or with the guns those barrels were mated with and voila, you have at least an early mark on their entire production.

Anyone want to construct a graph?

Last edited by Argo44; 12/23/20 06:35 PM.

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I've been playing a similar version of this game for thirty years. You can come close, but, I question ever being able to nail a precise date down.

This would appear to be the oldest gun I've got, at the moment:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Note that the gun has the 6.5 chamber stamps. Proofed with powder T, for sure later than 1900. I once owned a Darne V20 that was identified as 1910 by the maker. It had 65mm stamps. It was also serial numbered in the 52,000 range, illustrative of a few things. Production was roaring on Darne guns in that era. I've seen few Darne guns of that age with Didier barrels, and I suspect the Darne factory simply out grew their suppliers fairly early on. You will see many old Darne guns with the stamp "Canons Darne" telling you that Darne produced their own tubes. At what point they made that leap I am not positive, but, I suspect prior to 1910. The V20 was clearly marked that way.
Herv Bruchet dated the V20 by comparing the work of the engraver who signed the gun, "Bernaud", with earlier, known examples of his work and a bit of history. Bernaud had to work into his mid 90s, and the later his work was, the worse it got. This was evident on my example.
But, it is the exception in my experience, rather than the rule, that one can nail down a date. No, we can't be sure who stockpiled barrels for French shotguns at the turn of the previous century, producer or manufacturer or, for how long.
The Halifax barrel flats, shown above, are from a pretty old gun. A friend has a Halifax 4, this being a Halifax 3, and the engraving is identicle, which points to his being a later gun, as does his five digit serial number, as opposed to the four digit number on this gun. A call to the factory got him a date of early 1930s, which, seems about right when considering the catalog evidence.
I suppose I'd guess the example Halifax in the photo as between 1905 and 1915. It is an educated guess, but, no more than a guess.
I can't clearly see a way to narrow it down beyond that.


Best,
Ted

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Probably best to remember that with those French ladies, don't think only about dating them. Think about taking them home for a longer term relationship. smile

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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Probably best to remember that with those French ladies, don't think only about dating them. Think about taking them home for a longer term relationship. smile



At least when we are speaking of Darne products, you aren't holding up your end of the bargain, Mr. Brown...


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Ted

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Argo44 Offline OP
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I have two French doubles and one French spouse. None are going anywhere (that I know of...at least the first two).

Last edited by Argo44; 07/01/17 01:01 AM.

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Great informative discussion.

But I guess Photobucket has struck again.

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