doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Take down sporting Martini rifles

I recently acquired a second take down martini sporting rifle. The new one is a Francotte with a hand detachable action and barrel. It joins a 300 Sherwood Westley Richards that came home five or so years ago. The Francotte is much lighter in the barrel than the WR and appears to be in 22 Hornet. Finish is original. Barrel is 26"+. Definitely a 22 centerfire round that seems to be close to 1.5" long.

Pics from the auction are below. It really looks better in person, although the auction house or the FFL responsible for shipping appears to have lost the cocking indicator that was pictured in the listing.

Anyone else have one of these?

CJF,
I couldn't get the photos to open up.
Mike

CJF,
I just saw one of these Francottes, a non-takedown one, last week and had a chance to disassemble and study it. It was a 297/230 Long Morris, had a 25" full octagon barrel (I believe it was cut from 27.5") and has a long wood addition to lengthen the LOP. The cartridge is a center fire that is basically a .22LR ballistically.

I think these Francottes are the best designed miniature Martini that I have personally seen. What is particularly appealing is the action disassembly lever that rotates 180 degrees to expose cuts in the pin that now allow the trigger/action assembly to rotate down around the rear of the action mortise. This tool-less takedown is appealing. Also, instead of the cone at the rear of the trigger/action assembly that mates with the cone in the back of the action the one I examined had a semi-circular transverse cylinder at the back of the action that cuts on the back of the trigger/action assembly mate with allowing the assembly to pivot forward into the action.

I hope I can impose on you to take some photos of the barrel takedown system. I've seen the Greener takedown method of cutting the bottom of the action through the threads and then using a threaded cross pin to squeeze the barrel in place and have a Model 6 and Model 12 BSA actions using the tapered cross pin but it looks like your action uses something different. I am working on a non-takedown Model 12 BSA that I'd like to create some kind of takedown system for.
Thanks,
Dennis

The Francotte action takedown is nice because the screw is captive (same for the barrel.) The Westley Richards action takedown uses a screw in the rear of the action, and that unfortunately can be unscrewed simply by removing the rifle from a gun sock...and then the guts fall out. (I know from experience!). But the barrel takedown on the WR is better both because it appears stronger, and it doesn't need a separate screw (just drop the lever and twist the barrel).

I'll post more pics tomorrow.

Chris

Does anyone have pictures of a Francotte takedown action showing the cocking indicator?

The cocking indicator on my Francotte went missing sometime after the auction house posted the listing pics. I don't know if it walked during the preview or if someone at the shipping dealer was playing around, but it's disappointing, as otherwise the rifle is really nice.

The cocking indicator on the WR Sherwood rifle is different and cannot come out without removing a screw. Pictures to follow.

CJF,
I think I would try a BSA cocking indicator. Numrich Arms might have one. If it doesn't fit, maybe it can be modified to fit. BSAs are common enough that maybe you could borrow one to try, before buying one.
Mike

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/459990.htm
Sold out
BUT call them anyway

Also, look here for drawing
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/Martini-33382/CadetSmallFrame-37339.htm?page=2

Mike

p.s.
http://doublercustom.com.au/Martini-Cadet-Action-Cocking-Indicator-Lever-USED--P4969228.aspx

Chris,
Here are some images of cocking indicators for the Francotte I mentioned earlier and one of my Model 12 BSAs. I don't know that they will interchange and I wasn't able to try when I took these images.

It would be extraordinarily lucky to come across an original Francotte part and making one is likely the only option you have.

CJF:

You might want to do a chamber cast. The rifle could be chambered for one of the .297-230 rounds, which are a centerfire with similar ballistics to the .22 Long Rifle. The cartridge was initially developed as a subcaliber training round for the Martini-Henry rifle, but migrated into rook rifles as well. There were several variations.

I may receive a lecture for this, but I tried out the rifle with 22 Hornet ammo. Accuracy was decent (roughly 1" at 30 yards with a rest and my aging eyes). But extraction was terrible. It seemed the chamber was just a tiny bit tight. Cases were a little hard to chamber, very hard to extract, but retained their shape after firing (and then entered and exited with ease.) I'm wondering if more cleaning and perhaps a polish of the chamber is needed.

Remington40x, I've never cast a chamber. What product and method do you recommend?

Dennis - great pictures. Thank you.

I am posting some pictures now and will try to expand shortly. Do you know how to remove the indicator? I am at a loss to see how it 'reads' the state of the action.

My WR is mounted only to the block. But your Francotte indicator mounts to the trigger plate. Does it interact with the firing pin in the block or the trigger/sear?

Here are some pictures from today's brief outing (only 4 rounds fired):

This first photo shoes the take down lever in the locked/barrel retention position.


Next the lever is shown up. Note how the barrel mortise is now totally round, ready to receive the barrel.



In this third pic you see the groove cut in the bottom of the barrel shank; this is what is locked when the retaining lever is turned down.

A few more:

Chris,
The indicator is a passive piece in that it is not under spring tension nor is it accuated by any type of mechanism. It is mounted in the cocking lever through the hole in the sear arm of the cocking lever that can be seen in your photos. Its motion is delimited by the cut on the right side of the breach block. The indicator consists of an ear and an axle. The axle is longer than the depth of the hole in the sear arm. The axle is a tempered spring that has been split along its axis that has two ears on the far side that expand outward when the indicator is fully seated in the hole holding it firmly in position.






The cocking lever is retained with the action lever pin and these two parts move in unison when the lever is lowered. When the sear arm of the cocking lever snaps over the trigger engaging the sear the striker is in its full rearward tensioned position and the action is cocked when the breach block is raised. Additionally, the striker arm of the cocking lever holds the striker rearward until the sear is released.

As the sear arm rises it rotates the cocking indicator through an arc upward enough that its tip becomes visible above the breach block. When the striker is released the sear arm of the cocking lever rotates down lowering the tip of the indicator below the top of the breach block. Just as a note, it is unsafe for the striker to be down when the action is closed and there is a live round in the chamber as the striker does not rebound or retract from its full forward position. At a minimum when a live round is in the chamber the action should be open. The forward part of the breach block will block the round from falling out of the chamber as the striker spring holds this position only allowing the cartridge to be removed when the lever is pushed under striker spring tension fully forward thus lower the breach block fully.

Some observations about your rifle. It is very nice rifle. Notice the difference in serial numbers between yours and the one that I photographed. Yours has the cone at the back of the action assembly like the BSA and Cadets rather than the cross pin through the action. Second, yours uses an eared extractor rather than the hemi version of the rimfire BSAs and of the my Francotte. Interestingly, Hoffman and Griffin and Howe custom rifles have modified rimfire extractors just as I did my multi-barrel project by simply putting the rim cut in the hemi version. From what I've seen of the early American gunmakers' use of the Martini actions they are pretty much Model 12 BSA rimfire.

The cocking indicator of the rifle that I have been photographing is quite wide compared to my BSAs and I'm not sure which might be appropriate for your rifle. I think one could be easily made and if you have a photo of the rifle from the auction house you may be able to discern which style it has. In my visits to Gunparts I have never seen a cocking indicator available.

Your trigger has been tuned by beveling its rear engagement surface to reduce apparent weight as well as to create a crisp letoff.

Finally, the takedown system is a surprise. I expected to see threads and then a cross pin that had a cutaway when 'opened' allowing the barrel to be screwed out and with a cam that actuated into a channel that went through the threads when the pin lever was rotated 'closed'. How tightly does the barrel tenon fit with the action?

I think that your sticky in and stickier out issues with your firings warrant close examination before more shooting and after you are sure what the chambering is headspace checking is in order. The firing pin appears to be a larger diameter than the 1/16" that I have been using. I can't tell whether the pin is bushed but it is also advisable to ensure that the pin has a good snug fit in the hole.

I'll let Mike address chamber casting.

Sorry for the lack of brevity but hope this helps.

The Hornet is what I used as donor brass for my .297-230, but I wouldn't use it as loaded for it. I'd do a chamber cast, and then get dies for the chamber. C&H4D sell the dies if it turns out to be the .297 Morris.
Doesn't look like a takedown system that would be good for much pressure! Fine for the old .297 though.

Could it be 22 WCF?

Brownells sells a substance called Cerrosafe which is used for chamber casts. It comes with directions.

Cerrosafe is fine for chamber cast I'm sure but as I don't have any, and like to keep things simple, I just use an old candle. First prepair the barrel - put in some newspater an inch or less past the chamber, then oil it lightly so it will not stick. Also use some paper or masking tape to avoid wax in unwanted places. Then melt the candle and pour it in. Wait some till hard and tap it out with a cleaning rod. Put in fridge and take measurments later (gently).

With kind regards,
Jani

Interesting suggestion. Read that 22 WCF rims can be thinner, which might resolve chambering issue.

I am ordering Cerrosafe per Remington40x's suggestion.

5.6x35R?

Hi Dennis - Thank you so much for the help with the pictures. Regarding the firing pin, below is a picture with the pin protruding. I need to get some magnification next time around, but by measure the hole appears to be 0.048, or 3/64. If the breach block was bushed, it must have been from the front and not via a lateral dove tailed face.

Gary D, CJF,
5.6x35R is just the metric designation for 22 WCF, and when "hot loaded" with nitro powder( although less so than the 22 Hornet)the Germans called it 5.6x35R Vierling. Yes, the rim of 22 Hornet was thickened to prevent chambering in 22 WCF rifles, when the Hornet was introduced commercially. The metric designation of the Hornet is 5.6x36R Hornet. There is an article in one of the "WAIDMANNSHEILs", published by the German Gun Collectors Assn., about the relationship between 22 WCF/5.6x35 Vierling/and 22Hornet. A copy would be obtainable from them.
Mike

I believe my local shop actually has a few boxes of 22 WCF in their obsolete ammo area. I will post more after casting the chamber and bore. (And thank you for the additional info re 5.6x35r vs 22WCF)

You might want to slug the barrel also. I don't know what the Europeans did but here the WCF was .228.

They were all over the place, vary from .222-.228". Available .228" bullets are too heavy(long) for the twist rate. It is always good to slug the barrel, if it is .297-230, you need the info anyway.
Mike

My 5.6x35R has a .226 throat and .225 bore, 1-9" twist, handles heavy-ish lead bullets with aplomb.

Cerrosafe is easy to use and has the advantage you can mail the casting to Dave at CH4D. He can supply the right dies off the cast dims. Probably have to do some case forming Dave has supplied dies for me off the shelf that are close to correct, fire form then load using neck sizing dies. No need for custom cut set. All from the chamber cast and his long experience.

Slug the barrel to find correct bullet size. Much less expensive to start knowing what you have. Less aggravation too.

Boats

A good measurement of the depth of the rim recess will be a little hard to obtain, without pulling the barrel. You might just cut the head off a Hornet case and use it as a gauge .

Gary- 1in9" is pretty quick for a 5.6x35R, I suspect they used a 5.6x52R barrel blank to build it. I think the ones with smaller diameter barrels were made with 22RF barrels, like the earliest Hornets. Of course, I have no proof of this, it just makes sense.
Mike

So much for my memory. The shop had many boxes of 22 WRF, but no WCF. Long shot that didn't pan out.

CJF,
It seems that I had missed that you had fired the rifle with 22 Hornet ammo. I have a few samples of .297-230 ammo, and in my opinion you would not be able to chamber a Hornet cartridge in a "Morris" chamber. It might be possible to force a Hornet cartridge into a 22WCF/ 5.6x35R chamber. It would then be very difficult to extract the fired case( just as you described). A Martini can exert a fair amount of force to chamber a round; but hardly any to extract it. Based on this, I now believe your rifle is chambered for 22 WCF/5.6x35R. If you still have the fired Hornet case, if I'm right, it wouldn't show much difference from fireforming.
Mike

Just for fun

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-No-1-22-WCF-Pre-1902-version-Reloading-/382112959533?hash=item58f7b50c2d:g:V2oAAOSww3tY4sJi

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/658406586

Mike

I wish someone offered a well made, steel, repro of the Lyman tool. Something you could do small volume reloading with while away from home. Anyone have a high-condition old school model they want to part with?

There is absolutely nothing that the steel Lyman 310 tool will do that the aluminum version cannot do exactly and precisely as well. But if you want to use conventional dies, then the Lee tong tool is the way to go.

I don't think a little Martini is much good at forcing a case into a chamber, a High or Low wall yes.
I once had a gunsmith take the barrel off one of my Martini's in 222 to fit a silencer and the cases I had neck sized just wouldn't go in after he had refitted the barrel.
I think he had tightened the barrel down just that little bit more than when it was originally fitted altering the head space and I had to pull all the bullets on the cases I had loaded, set the die down just the slightest fraction to push the shoulder back.
Regards.