doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Fixing over-timed screws?

I've got some screws (top lever, top tang, trigger plate, etc) that are what I would call "over-timed". Put another way, if they are as tight they should be, the slots will be past the direction that they should be pointing. Complicating this further, some of them have heads that are fit to the curve of what they are positioned in. What are the strategies to fix such problems?

The issues are with the Alfred Field, and I cannot make new screws nor buy replacements from Mr. Field.

Thanks!

Washers punched or cut out of thin shim may sort it out for you.

Question...when the slots are lined up does the screw head shape fit the shape of the action as needed? And how much over-timed do you estimate?

There is room for the screw head to be more fully seated, which you can do if you go beyond timed. The different surfaces have become squashed perhaps.

I would say that on average that these are able to point to between 2 and 4 o'clock when fully tight. Maybe I'm anal, but it doesn't look good, and the tops of the screw heads are no longer flush with the surface that are resting in when they are over-timed, or under-timed for that matter.

This would effectively extend the underside of the head so that it bottomed out at the appropriate time, and was then tight in that timed position. Right?

This guy makes end-play shims for revolvers. Perhaps he has something to fit your screws?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/626889435

I have access to shims for end shake, and will give those a try for size. Thank.

B.Graham.
Are you sure the screws were timed, to start with( of course the one filed to fit the trigger guard was)? If they weren't, there is not much you can do, easily. If you are sure they were, the first thing to do is to be sure they are in the correct "hole". Those that either screw into or through the wood (stock, forearm)may be out of time due to wood shrinkage. A fix for these is to let a piece of wood into the stock, where the screw goes through, and work them down to where the screw is timed. A quick temporary fix is to put wood shims between the stock and tangs( this is also useful to see how much room has to be taken up. Where the screws go into metal parts, check to see if they have been marked to indicate whether they were intended for the right or left side of the receiver. A common way to mark the screws is by filing a line on the end of the screws intended for one side, and those for the other side are left blank. In cases where a third similar screw is used(drilling), the third one has a x filed on the end. The fix for these is to put them into the correct "holes". Where the shrinkage is very severe, the tangs might be pulled so close together, the gun won't function. In this case, shims or additional wood would be needed, anyway. If the stock has been refinished, and oversanded to the point that the metal "stood proud", the tangs might have been let into the stock deeper, causing the problem. Of course, since I haven't seen the gun, this is only speculation.
Mike

Thank you.

Fit with the wood seems as it should be. In this case it's more metal to metal: larger screw holding the trigger plate to the frame, the large screw under the to top level, and the screw that holds the top level to the mechanism attached to the bolt. The gun is the Alfred Field SLE that I'm working to clean up.

I don't know to what degree the screws were or were not appropriately timed. I think it's about 120 years old based on the marks, so who knows what has transpired to date.

Shim may be tricky with the trigger guard but should work fine on any action screws.
I've made an unconventional repair to a guard once where weld was run around the countersunk part then I used valve grinding paste to lap the screw back in after rough shaping the angle . Professionals may cringe but I used a cordless drill to carefully spin the screw until it sat at the right depth and could be timed.

I need to get some of this valve grinding paste. It's use has been mentioned before.


There have been many methods we know about used to solve problems with guns, and many are likely still unknown. If they work, they work, professionally endorsed or not. With this gun, I'm just trying to make it a bit nicer than it was, for use for another 100 years I hope.

Not always possible, but sometimes on the trigger guard you can use a large dia blunt punch to upset the countersink from the backside of the guard.
That pushes metal upward into the countersink inside and makes the screw tighten up as it pulls into place taking the over timeing out.

I use a a round nose punch large enough to span the screw hole plus the countersink on the backside of the hole. Support the guard on a flat steel surface of course and take it easy as it's quite easy to push metal inward.
Many countersinks are thin there and don't take much effort. The guard will bend very easily at the screw holes too so be careful.
It also works on trigger plates and other parts if the same conditions are there for reworking. Even thin case hardened surfaces dimple inward OK but don't over do. If in doubt use a shim here.

Couple ways to shorten up the TPI on machine screws to make them draw in quicker. That corrects over timing. Also drawing out same to allow timing w/a screw that comes up short of 12 oclock.
Certainly not professionally endorsed! but I've used it for 40yrs and will continue to. No complaints so far.

Thanks Kutter. Those techniques make sense to me. I'll see what the undersides look like and give it a try.

Ok scream and shout now to get it over with. I do know of a way to re-time screws but it is not of the best practice though also not damaging to the screws or their mounting positions. I have used this method occasionally on guns and other restoration projects and it works almost too well for its simplicity.
It is a little tricky to get right first time but after a little practice you will become proficient. So lets say it is not a permanent repair though some have lasted for forty years.
And what is this well kept secret method? Wire wool strands wrapped around the screw under the head using a washer on the screws shank to create a winding space. Add or remove strands of wire to create the correct timing. And when the screw is finally tightened down the wire compresses and becomes a solid mass, in fact as solid as a correct depth washer. There are many ways to solve a problem and not all are obvious or liked but they work.

A small copper wire single wrap will also work as the pressure of tightening will compress it to a flat washer. You will have to experiment with the diameter of the wire

This is what I use to cut the countersunk hole to accept the screws on a "new made" part. It may be possible to use one in a drill press, with the cord unplugged and turned by hand, to shave a tiny bit more out of the receptor hole to make the screw go on around to the next 12 o'clock/6 o'clock position. You would have to determine how much you had to work with before doing this. And, of course, it would not work if the screw head was filed to a contour to match the accepting part, as some are.

These are available in several different angles. I think the three in my set are 82 degree.

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/01051242

Best, SRH

Glad I asked! This is all great information, and I hope others find this collection of approaches worth keeping a link to. Thank you all.

If it is the female threaded part that has moved then a washer on the head of the screw most likely will raise the head above the surrounding metal , potentially creating as many problems, i.e. the top lever catching on it, etc. Best to see if female part can be shimmed away. My gunsmith lays a little Accraglass in the inlet of the trigger plate and carefully inlets it again till the breech pin is clocked when tight.

Perhaps it's overkill but it seems to me that another solution is the same one as for damaged screw heads. One could weld up the top, tighten to current conditions then shape and slot the head as appropriate.
Jeremy

The easiest way to "re-time" a used screw is to insert a small piece of pure silver wire around the body of the screw as you tighten the screw the wire will flatten exactly to the thickness necessary for the appropriate timing, it work only with soft and elastic metal like pure silver or 24K gold, lead is too soft!