doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Is this a Johan Sigott drilling?

Hello.
Now it's time to make my first post here.
I recently purchased a Ferlach hammer drilling without knowing it's producer. The drilling was made in 1931, and it's chambered for 20/70 and 7x72R. Ammunition is no problem for a long time, I've got a die set and plenty of emtpy cartridges.
The scope, a 4 x Kahles Hubertus, was probably fittet after some time, because the "Vienna snap fitting" is cutting away half of the producers name on top of the barrels. Now it says "OTT Ferlach". From this, I belive the gun is made by Johan Sigott, but I can't make the numbers confirm it. Can any one of you experts tell me if i'm right?

68cm barrels.

Typical engraving. The stock was broken one time in the past. The right hammer has also been replaced.

Combination of dollhead and greener bolt. I have seen this combination on another Sigott combination gun. Either on this forum, or at nitroexpress. The diopter misses the insert. I will make a replacement part, but do anyone know what the proper diameter of the peek hole should be?

Waterboard:568.31 Barrel:300.31.150.60.

I have got some different reloadingdata for this cartridge, but I'm not sure what powder I should go for. I can choose between Norma 201, Norma 202, and Norma 204. The 201 and 202 is in combination with a 120 or 140 graqin bullet, while 204 is with the 160grains bullet.
I will be using this gun for hunting roe deers, typical up to 70m range. I will test shoot with 140 grains bullet. The gun is quite old, and I would like to avoid a unnecessary high preassure peak. So the question is what powder would you recomend me to go for?

In my notes Johann Sigott is first mentioned in 1898 and his last prewar gun is from the middle 1920s.
He or his son is on the 1945 list of Ferlach gunmakers and last Johann Sigott gun is dated 1962.
Another Sigott was Thomas, active circa 1910.
My notes are incomplete of course.
If proofed in Ferlach in 1931 your gun should have the single headed republican eagle with hammer and sickle.
Are the barrels marked JS by any chance?
Your gun seemingly experienced German reproof in January 1998, likely when the chambers were lenghtened to 70mm.

With kind regards,
Jani

That's interesting! I have not heard of Thomas Sigott before.
What stamp is it who make you think it's reproofed in 98? I found the Munich proof mark toghether with the Nitro proof mark. (eagle with N) Similar to the middle and the left mark at the attached picture. The number next to the munich proof mark is 361. Each barrel has also a "similar eagle" with a M.

I made a mistake; the year of the German post-war proof is not 1998. Rather, after enlarging and turning the photo, the number seems to be 36, maybe badly struck 86 - 1986? In any case the post war markings are clearly German proofs, done in Munich (since 1968?): German federal eagle, Munich shield, number 86(?), maybe also 1. These marks are above the barrel lug. The federal eagle is struck elsewhere also, such as near the 20/70 marking for the lenghtened chamber.
BTW there were other Sigotts too, but in a different time frame (18th & 19th cent.).
Jani

Ok. This make sense. The number is 361. I was told that it was a forester from Bayern who ordered the drilling. I'm told he had it/used it until 1938. It's a pure speculation, but would the fitting of the scope demand a reproof?
If so, that could be the cause of the stamps. From what I have read, the Vienna snap lock fitting of the scope, is not used after the war.

I cant find a stamp of the single headed republican eagle with hammer and sickle, but I have the "EF" (First proof mark?) and the NPF mark. Both are assosiated to Ferlach as far as I understand.

Skrotnissen,
Mounting a scope wouldn't require a reproof, but rechambering would. Since it has 2 3/4" chambers, it has been rechambered.
Mike

Number 361 would indicate German proof (reproof) done in March, 1961.
Yes, EF and NPF are both Ferlach marks.
Jani

Ok. I just wondered, since the scope mounts almost cut the top rib in half. :-)

1st pass saw it as #300 in 1931 being 15.0mm on the scattergun tubes & 6.0mm on the solid projectile tube.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Moose Snoot( �lgmule )of Sweden gives that:

"Firma Johann Sigott, Feinb�chsenmacher und Jagdgewehrerzeugung in Unterferlach, K�rnten", p advertizes in early February of 1897.

He lost a daughter (suicide) in May 1921.

From November 1926: " Die bekannte Gewehrlieferant Johann Sigott in Ferlach (K�rnten) hat eingezeigt, da� ein gleichnamiger, 27 Jahre alter Sohn, der mehrmals wegen Diebstahls und Betruges vorbestrafst ist, sich in Tirol, besonders in Innsbruck, herumtreibt, zweifellos in betr�gerischer Absicht, um bei Gesch�fstleuten, die sich brieflich an den Vater Johann Sigott wandten, liegen diesbez�gliche Briefe vor. Es ist als sicher anzunehmen, da� Sigott junior noch zahlreiche weitere Betr�gereien ver�bt hat oder noch ver�ben wird. Deshalb wird vor ihm gewarnt. Gesch�digte m�gen sich bei der Kriminalabteilung Innsbruck melden."

Johann Sigott was the "Erfinder der Drall-Rifled-Bohrung" (occasionally as "Sigott-Rifled-Bohrung" or Sigott-Drall-Rifled-Bohrung").(I believe we have a thread on that & I'll ferret it out.)

One advert for Johann Sigott claimed to have been "Lieferant des hohen Adels �sterreich-Ungarns". Johann Sigott did don a moustache.

Not sure if Sigott = Sigoth but the following are some 1st discovery dates:
Sigoth, Valentin (from 1883)
Sigoth, Gottfried (from 1890)

During the years of 1933-34-35 and 36, the Sigott business turns up in B�chsenmacher Emanuel Swancar ads as "Niederlage der Pr�zisions-Gewehrfabrik/Niederlage der Gewehrfabrik/Wiener Niederlage der Gewehrfabrik". It would seem that Swancar was the outlet in Vienna for Sigott wares.

In, early November, 1937 the business is listed under "Empfehlenswerte Firmen" as "Johann Sigott, Gewehrfabrik, Ferlach, K�rnten." with that being the last entry discovered thus far on Johann Sigott.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Looks like the backwards C paired w/ a C was the tube mechanic. I would be most interested in the odd marks forward of the 15.1 Choke stamps on the scattergun tubes.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Axel E. on the GGCA site gives that: "Johann Sigott, 1872 � 1955, was a gunmaker at Ferlach #34, Austria". Adding the average period of 24 years for attaining the rank of meister b�chsenmacher would suggest that Johann Sigott attained that rank in the 1896-1897 time frame. Thanks again Moose Snoot for the research effort.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Below is the thread for the unique Sigott tube boring("Sigott-Rifled-Bohrung" or Sigott-Drall-Rifled-Bohrung" ):

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=370702&page=3

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

A big thank you to you all, for the help so far.

-Raimy,those odd marks seems to be EF stamps, almost polished away.

-I have seen that thread before. Those barrels has also got the double C stamp. Do any of you know if that stamp is related to Sigott only, or is it a common Ferlach stamp seen on multiple brands?

Skrotnissen, can you confirm or deny if your tubes have a similar internal pattern?

Nah, I'd say the CC mechanic was @ the Ferlacher Consortium. The stamp of liability & compensation appears on many other Ferlach offerings.

Being new to the site, how successful were you in garnering info when you searched, i.e., is the info arranged on the DGS BBS so that threads w/ pertinent info came to light high in the search results?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

No, the gun do not have this special bore. This gun has normal smooth shotgunbarrels.
I googeled the internett to find as much information as possible for my gun. I have not yet tried to search insider the forum as a member. I will give you feedback.
Would you say that code number 34, always would be stamped on the gun if it was made by Sigott in Ferlach, or are you familiar with chases of "named guns" without matchingen number?
Cheers Joar.

No, you are compressing time as the Ferlach Maker's nummers as issued by the Brits were post WWII. Regarding Ferlach, I'd say the name atop the rib would at a minimum denote effort & @ least finishing effort by the maker. Might be some mechanic's initials around the weight of the tubeset.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey my Sensei!
I guess I got caught in the web. :-) There are circulating a list of the makers numbers on the web. This list states that the pre war number for Sigott was 34, and that the post war number was 43.

This Sigott b�chsflinte has the exact same combination of dollhead combined with Greener cross bolt. Also the diopter is similar to mine.


B�chflinte
This gun looks almost like it's been engraved by the same engraver, as mine.
The engraving of the right sidelock is extremely similar to my left sidelock. The engraving of the lock for the front wood is exactly similar mine, line by line. The top lever, dollhead and the end of the greener bolt also seems to be the same. Could this be a confirmation or tell tale of the guns origin? I don't know if the engravers was employees of the gunmaker, or if they where working for them selfes.

Thanks in advance,
Joar

Joar:

Pre-WWII use of maker's numbers goes against the grain as the 1st number in the preliminary datastring of each sporting weapon has an issued proofhouse number, which was designed to obscure the actual maker from the proof mechanics in an effort to deter bias toward a certain maker or pool of makers. As I understand it, post WWII the Brits devised a numerical system in an effort to tally the number of respective weapons that originated w/ a specific maker & then to keep tabs on production, etc. Axel E gives otherwise that the Ferlach makers devised the numbering scheme on their own & it was their house/factor number? For now I don't subscribe to that.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

One sees that reverse C - C stamp quite often sometimes along w/ the letters St. on Johann Sigott's wares:









I'll look thru other Ferlach maker images to see what I can find.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I wonder if that odd M/N, below the intertwined script EF, was something more akin to the script Ms on this Ferlach, Austrian blade thread:

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0249.htm

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

This O/U Combo is a bit tattered but the Feinster Special Stahl tube does have the Sigott-Drall-Rifled-Bohrung and might be worth consideration just to see what the pattern might yield.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100835204

For those following along, I'm confident this offering is an A&D Body Action w/ false sideplates:






http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100495450

Another Johann Sigott false sideplate from a previous thread:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=370702&page=3

With only 2 such Johann Sigott examples, I'm curious if all the A&D Body Action w/ false sideplates were sourced from Liege?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Below is some verbiage that notes that the House numbers of the makers were used as a Maker ID, issued by the occupying forces after WWII and the makers held fast with the issued ID number henceforward.

"die ersten beiden Ziffern der Waffennummer sind die sog. "Hausnummer", die den Hersteller codiert. Diese Nummern wurden 1945 von den Besatzungsm�chten vergeben, um die eingezogenen Waffen den Herstellern zuzuordnen."

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Sorry for this late reply on your great effort Raimey.
I've been offline for some time. I have been looking for the St stamp on other Ferlach guns, but so far, I can't find other gunmakers using this stamp. In my opinion, it's another piece in this pussle, telling me that the gun probably is made by Sigott.
Please tell me if you think I rush to the conclusion. :-)

Regards Joar.

Yeah, it is possible to associate St & Sigott for now. But more examples needs to be examined in the preponderance of evidence.

Cheers,

Raimey
rs

Time for a update in my jurney to get this gun fit for hunt. It's a long text, but I maybe some of you will find this interesting?

-After long delay, I finally got to test the gun. The ammunition who came along when I bought it, was in my opinion not good enough for the real deal. It had a 120gr bullet loaded with 5grains less powder than smallest load recomended. By calculation, it should have a velocity of 5oo m/s at V0. That low speed made me unsure about the deformation of the bullet, and also the impact energy would be less than I prefer. I shot some test rounds of this amunition, and was more dissapointed than expected. There where hardly any recoil, and I had a lot of misfire. I ditched the rest of the rounds, and started a search after the fault. I found two possible causes. The first was the primer. When reloading I discovered that the inner part of the primers who had fired was falling apart from the primer cup. It seemed to me that the primer was not pushed all the way into the bottom of the primer well. It was easy to fix that problem. I used federal primers, (because they have a softer cup) and made sure they got in all the way. The other problem I found was more time consuming to fix. The right hand side hammer is not the originale one. It was scrubbing against wood and metal before it hit the firing pin. This reduced the speed and the energy of the hammer. I took up my tools and started to file away excess metal. At the same time I made som adjustments to make it look more similar to the originale hammer.

It's not finished, but it now works.-)

Then I bought 160 grain hornady SST bullets, who will deform at low speed, and made a "loading ladder" starting from the bottom to the top in the loading chart. At the a new test shooting, the gun fired every round. I started at the low load, and worked my way up to the where I hit the target at a correct height, using the iron sight. They all hit far to the left, about 12-15 cm away from center. Then I reloaded all my cartridges with the correct load, and calculated how much I had to move the sight. I found it easiest to make a small washer at the left side of the rear sight.


Then I tested the gun again. The correction helped, but I still need to move it more over.(don't mind the 10, that was my fault)

I will make a thicker washer and give the sight some more room to move to the right.

Then I decided to adjust the old scope. This old Kahles "Hubertus" is fixed with the Wienna snap fit, and has no side adjustments, exept form the dowe tail at the back claws of the snap fitting. I can tell you I got some eyes looking at me with wonder, when i started to use a hammer (and a brass piece) on the gun :-) Of course the caliper was priceless for helping me see how far I had to go.
The scope works wonderful, and after a few shots, I could take the official test every hunter (and rifle) must take, to hunt in Norway.


The upward hit pattern is pretty much what to expect from a combination gun. I still have some job to do with the iron sights, but the gun is a joy to shoot.

/Joar

Such posts are always most welcome. Just post the link to your Photobucket account & we can view the images there.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I have just tried to change the URL from Photobucket to pinterest. Hopefully it works...

Well done
Thank you for this posting
Mike

Raimey,
I'm not convinced "Hausnummer" in this use actually means the address of the makers. One of my German Branch chiefs often referred to some contractor's proposals as "Hausnummers", meaning made up numbers, not real. I took this as a German "saying".
Mike

Mike you are right - in German.... "die sogenannten Hausnummern.." means "so called".

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Well, time for a small update.
At the last test shooting, I discovered that I had to adjust the iron sigts even more than first calculated, due to clearance at the original setup. The bullet hit the target about 8cm to the left of the bullseye. After a quick calculation I decided to make a new washer/spacer. This time, 0,94mm thick.

I'm using the lathe for this work.

Some filing required to make the adjustment.

With the work done, I went to the shooting range and tested the adjustments.

Pretty happy with this. The third shot went up to the left. I guess the left is my fault, and the heigth is due to the heat.

Now I feel confident to hunt with this "old" drilling.

Cheers Joar

Well done
Thank you for posting
Now, when you have passed the test and
harvested game, please post that adventure
Mike