doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Some English guns won't make proof.

I don't see how proof laws protect any buyer against buying an unsafe used gun. The laws do not prevent anyone from honing a bore past the proof limits, it just prevents it being legally resold that way. So, we are to believe that everybody became honest because of the laws? Baloney.

A buyer still must be educated enough to either be able to measure and determine if the bores have been honed too much, or hire a capable person to do so. Caveat emptor is not nullified just because laws exist.

Until everyone abides by laws, you're still on your own to protect yourself.

SRH

Brittany Guy: just to clarify, British proof law does not require reproof after lengthening forcing cones alone.
This may not apply to light weight small gauge doubles, but certainly with most U.S. 12s, the angle of the forcing cone is more abrupt than the exterior taper of the barrel, so the wall thickness in the cone (in my measuring experience anyway) is usually equal or even greater than the end of the chamber.
An illustration from the Hallowell site



This disaster was from "inexpert" lengthening of both the chamber and cones

Shotgunjones ,
Your cavalier attitude beggars belief .
I offered my well meaning advice for those of you who wished to safeguard your life and limbs to the best of your ability.
No where did I say that firing a proof load was all that was necessary .
What is necessary is to check the mechanical strength and integrity of any firearm used to the best of an individuals ability.
I shudder at how many exploded guns we see on US websites and forums , whilst hardly ever seeing any here in the UK.

Drew,

I was under the impression that under English proof law lengthened forcing cones was considered a "material alteration" as are the installation of choke tubes & requires reproof but a quick search this AM does not confirm that on the lengthened forcing cones so I stand corrected.

Stan,

For the record I'm not advocating the US adopt a Proof Law, all I'm saying is that in countries that do have a Proof Law it would make sense to address alterations & repairs to both the interior & exterior of the bbls which the existing English Proof Law does not effectively do by only considering bore enlargement over original
proof diameter & not taking lost wall thickness due to restriking & or refinishing into consideration.

Well salopian, we do a lot more shooting over here by a factor of many times and not every one of us is a genius.

We don't have a huge problem with burst guns as a result of over thin barrels.

The blown barrels you see are almost always a result of an obstruction, a hand loading error, or sometimes both - the load having caused the obstruction.

I am aware of two almost new guns from countries that have proof laws blowing with factory ammunition. Incredible as that seems, it's apparently impossible to make this activity completely safe.

We agree that old guns demand respect and careful evaluation. I don't think that avoiding violent reproof is at all a caviler attitude. A great many old guns here that can't be 'out of proof' since they were never 'in proof' are used successfully and safely. We simply relegate them for use with 'appropriate' loads.

A whole lower pressure cartridge market has resulted, and 'most' of our hand loaders are safe and competent. Just like most of our pilots and doctors. It's always the spectacular mistake though that makes the news.

With freedom comes responsibility, and with commercial activity comes liability. I believe you are in the gun trade. You can hardly recommend anything other than what you do.

Sir,
Thank you for your civil reply.
I suggested to a number of English GunTrade members that maybe we should consider British Proof Laws and advice along with Belgian Proof as advocated here in earlier posts.
Whilst being a 'good idea' it isn't a good idea to suggest to the'Masters' a better idea unless they had thought of it first.
I just do not wish to see anyone losing a hand or eye , if they lose their shirt in a deal that is their problem.
Once again thank you.

Better to fire a salute than exchange broadsides.

I just spent the day shooting, and your reply has improved my mood which was already most satisfactory.

Scotch glass raised to salopian. Cheers.

And I Lads! Rusty old McAllans...

I thought about this thread for awhile before offering this commentary to the group.

I have 2 out of proof guns. There is a distinction about out of proof.
1.) Out of Proof cannot be sold. However, if I choose to have a barrel opened greater than .008 and intend to keep the gun, it doesn't require reproof. The gun is not changing hands/being sold. I had an Edward Lang under-lever Damascus hammer gun modified. It was cyl/full. The left barrel was already too big.
I had the right barrel reamed to leave 0.010 of choke at the end.
I had the left barrel choke opened from .040 to .020.
Now I have a IC/Mod 30" hammer gun by one of the Lang brothers with decent chokes.
My MWTs are .036/.028. (A long way from 9"). The chambers are still 2 1/2".
The original bores were 13 (.710). They are now .738/.738
Yes, if I intended to sell the gun, I would have reproofed it.
But, I am not selling it, so it was not required.
I chose not to subject the Lang to modern proofs.

2.) An out of proof cannot be sold. I have a really pretty Army and Navy SLNE 12. Something along the way damaged (buldge?) the left barrel 16" from breach. The external damage was struck down and the bore honed to remove any evidence.
When they were finished butchering, the BWT was .011 16" from the breach and the left bore had opened to .743 (from .719). The thinness was right where your hand grabs the barrels prior to shooting. I have a barrel wall thickness gauge with 16" sticks. The damage/thinness is right at the limit of where my rods reach. It could have easily been missed. Many folks have barrel wall gauges with 10" rods, since proof thickness is measured at 9". Baloney, I care about my hands.
The gun was never sent to proof. It was given away with the condition it never be sold or shot.
As President of the Carolina Vintagers, I now have the gun and use it as a training tool (firing pins removed).
The gun looks great. The economics don't support a sleeving for a SLNE.
So, it will spend it's time with me showing SxS fans WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO MEASURE BARRELS.

Joe Norcom

"An out of proof cannot be sold."

British law rather ceased to have much effect in NC after the 1783 Treaty of Paris.