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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,497 Likes: 396
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,497 Likes: 396 |
This is an age old argument Few people in the west of Canada have much regard for a monarchy that essentially provides no intrinsic service to Canada yet expects its yearly royalty payment. They are not the government, don't and can't initiate new legislation, provide no economic benefit, in reality are a trumped up monarchy set in place by the Catholic religion i.e The Pope, for having defeated the previous monarchy that was in disfavour of the the Catholics. I'm abbreviating history dramatically but it was in the time of the Catholics vs the Protestants and the Anglicans won. Something about Henry VIII and all the wives he had beheaded.
I digress, would the boys make a better King than Charles the buffoon? Rightly so. But they have not served Canada. They were employed in the British military. Over and over again both the Canadians and esp. the Australians move closer to disengaging from the British monarchy. I don't think it will happen till Elizabeth passes as she has been a graceful Queen who had shied away from controversy to stay in favour of all. But who in Canada really cares for there is really no impact on our lives?
I think I should go to my gun room and pet one of my favourite English guns before I get carried too far away. The English have provided the backbone of Canadian history, law and governance and fine sxs! The monarchy....nothing!!
I should say I am humbly in thanks for those Americans who can sing our national anthem. But I hope we kick your as#.
David, I don't want to get into an argument about the pros and cons here but at least get the facts in your rant straight. The misrepresentations of fact in your second sentence act as a foundation of sand for all that follows. It is not factual to suggest "few" in the west support the monarchy as part of our system of government. And those that don't support it may be under the mistaken impression, as you are, that some kind of royalty or stipend is paid to the British Crown by Canada, when no such thing is done. Cheers, James
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10 |
What "royalty" is...
Long, long ago in the dark and swampy past, some guy bonked my/your ancestor over the head with a stick, and declared himself in charge. He enforced this ongoing situation with force, and taught his ancestors to do the same. And so, with each passing generation a more orderly detante emerged. Those who no longer remembered when they werent ruled, and those rulers who conseqiently no longer needed to rule by brutish force. Thus, as passive acceptance set in, so too did a more "elegant" brand of force...that of the fictional fairy tale history. The pretty princesses and balls amd castles and chivelrous gentlemen.
But make no mistake, these "royals" didnt always exist. It all just began with a bonk over the head. And whatever the fairytale is, YOU are paying for it.
This is true of all royalty, be they as new as the 1950's (Saudi's), or as old as the current 3/4's German queen known as "the British crown"
There is nothing magical. They are just as inbred as Appalachian mountain folk, and not nearly as skilled at anything other than living off the worlds most generous welfare allowance.
The rabble are unruly and prone to be hot tempered, ill-advised, and improperly suited to vote. But they strive to live FREE! Even if that freedom is imperfect. As such, count me among the rabble.
- Nudge
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,144 Likes: 37
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,144 Likes: 37 |
James, By no means is this a rant as I would have to be angry or emotionally charged (as per the Free Dictionary definition) and I am neither. In fact I really don't care for it is too far removed from my world to have significance. I only mention it to add some clarity and perhaps inform others of the sentiments towards the monarchy in my part of Canada. It is too late and I do not wish to google through the internet to find examples to verify what I have said. Polls have been conducted in the past and it is well noted from them that there is a far stronger sentiment to the monarchy in eastern Canada than there is in the west. Most of the force to disengage Canada from the monarchy has arisen in the west. But yes please disregard my last sentence in the second paragraph as not factual for there are Canadians who do care to have a monarchy ruled system. And certainly nothing of this is directed at you personally. I don't think you would find it is my nature to do so. But in regards to my second sentence you may want to read this: http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/queen-costs-us-more-than-the-brits-pay/It may be somewhat hyped but I think Macleans provides a relatively unbiased account. Regards, David
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,497 Likes: 396
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,497 Likes: 396 |
David, I have read that. We make no payment to the crown. We pay, essentially for security, as we do for any other VIP, say Ivanka Trump, when they come to Canada. And we pay to have a "head of state" conduct their duties. As do most other countries. There are many countries whose governmental system means the "head of state" is largely a ceremonial role. As it is with ours.
Eliminating our allegiance to the Monarchy would not make those costs go away. We would simply need to find a different method for selecting our ceremonial "head of state".
In 2015 a Forum Reaearch poll had less than 40% in favour of abolition and 2016 poll put the abolitionists at under 30%. I think both those polls speak eloquently to your assertion that "few" support the monarchy. In both cases a significant majority support it or don't want to see it abolished. And like any poll, on any subject, there are regional differences. Like the biggest hotbed for abolitionists is in the East. Quebec.
Edit to add: In no way did I take your comments personally. I'm fine with differing opinions. And I hope you feel the same.
Last edited by canvasback; 05/04/17 07:56 AM.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,021 |
What 'royalty' was back in history was the police force and military of society. That job was not very easy nor very safe.
Healthy Sons were thrown into the stables at riducously early ages to learn to ride and take care of horses and then swung a sword all day long. Weak sons were despised and cast aside.
William Marshall's father response when demanded that they lift a siege or his son dies, "Go ahead and kill him, don't I have the hammer and anvil (His wife) to forge new and better ones."
Nothing was easy back then especially being a noble. The strong took what they wanted, the weak kept what they could, that includes the nobility.
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 355 Likes: 10 |
Sure, if you believe the police force and military should have 'first rights' with your wife, can tax anything you do without limitation, requisition your property, etc, etc.
You can idealize it all you like through the rose colored glasses of 'pomp and circumstance.' But at the end of the day it is what it's always been...an imaginary birthright, and an imaginary authority.
"Imaginary," because I grant them neither.
A Constitutional representative republic is a challenging and messy form of government. But it is the best thing going, by far. And any furtherance of "Royalty," even as some quaint Disney-esque unempowered daliance...amounts to little more than a drain on tax dollars.
- Nudge
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,350 |
The East is Quebec, James? Quebec and Ontario are "Upper and Lower Canada." The East is the four Atlantic provinces, and my guess as monarchial as Ontario.
I anticipate a significant drop in approval when our popular queen dies, if her son and not grandson assumes the role. Feisty over creepy for me.
A distinguishing feature of our royalty: there are no deferments. They serve the military in combat operations like everyone else.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,497 Likes: 396
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,497 Likes: 396 |
A Constitutional representative republic is a challenging and messy form of government. But it is the best thing going, by far. And any furtherance of "Royalty," even as some quaint Disney-esque unempowered daliance...amounts to little more than a drain on tax dollars.
- Nudge
Nudge, they are all messy and they are all challenging. And no one system is the best, for all time. We muddle through with ours, you muddle through with yours. I'm happy to have a monarchy fufill certain roles....I think it's better than the false royalty Americans created with the Kennedys, Bushes and Clintons. Tell me most of the members of those families weren't "to the manor born". At least we aren't pretending to be something we aren't.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,144 Likes: 37
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,144 Likes: 37 |
Mr. Brown,
East is relative to where you live. East in our context is anything east of Manitoba. Where does the west begin for you?
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,484 Likes: 210
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,484 Likes: 210 |
Tamid, Canvasback,
Prince Harry has served his country, including you, in combat, along with the very fine and brave Canadian soldiers. I as an American, am grateful for their comradeship. There is no doubt, in my mind, that if he had been allowed, Prince William would have served in combat, as well and as bravely as Prince Harry.
Close to 250 years ago, we made a choice, regarding the monarchy; you had the same chance, and made a different choice. Since that time, thankfully, we have all been "family".
Mike
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