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Thank you to all who have started and contributed to past threads on damascus. I finished my first set a short while ago, and had a great bunch of fun doing it. An experienced fellow was kind enough to talk through my process, and I think I have a plan for going forward. Maybe, if so blessed, this could be a second career to keep me busy down the road. Feedback was very good at the Southern, which was very much appreciated.

Pardon the poor photography with the shadows next to the rib. This is two bar from an L.C. Smith. Starting work on a similar set shortly.


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Excellent for a first effort. No visible flaws in the picture. I recommend lacquering the tubes, then following up with Renaissance Wax. Good choice on tubes, 2-iron generally colors well, 3-iron usually requires quite a few more cycles to completely fill the crolle.

Regards
Ken


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Originally Posted By: Ken61
Excellent for a first effort. No visible flaws in the picture. I recommend lacquering the tubes, then following up with Renaissance Wax.

Thanks Ken. I went with Formby Tung Oil, gloss. Next round I plan to take a look at Briwax. I know some also like to use Watco Danish Oil.

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Ah, tung oil actually has a brownish tint. Pour some in a white cup and you'll see what I mean. I went through that, all that labor and then using a coating that reduces contrast. Didn't make sense to me.


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Yeah, I see. Thanks. The Briwax I want to try is clear. Didn't have lacquer on hand at the time.

Thankfully, a pair of L.C. Smith elder statesmen said it looked factory quality, that too much contrast for this particular specimen would have had too much contrast. I appreciate that perspective, historically accurate or not.

What fun to learn this process.

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I'm of a different opinion, as it's impossible for anyone living to have seen what the barrels looked like fresh from the factory.

I suspect the tastes of the day favored high contrast and very defined patterns.


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Makes sense. Personally, I don't care for browned barrels, regardless of the historical or geographical validity of the look. Unless required to for some reason, I'll stick with black and white.

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The barrels look very nice and appropriate to your gun.

I like both black and white and browned versions of Damascus and treasure the one Kith Kearcher restored damascus gun I have from my father. Seeing this thread makes me want to load some shells and take it out to the skeet range


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Originally Posted By: old colonel
The barrels look very nice and appropriate to your gun.

Thank you, Sir.

Originally Posted By: old colonel
Seeing this thread makes me want to load some shells and take it out to the skeet range

Sounds like a great idea!

I've got another set to do from an Elsie hammer gun, and then a set from an English gun, the Alfred Field I've been trying to learn about in another thread.

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Finished the Alfred Field set last night. Tight pattern and a challenge. Need to set up some decent photography assets. Looks better in person.



Drew, is this 3 Iron Oxford?

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You sir have a talent. I have re-done several barrels, and not well. You and Ken can have my share. smile

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Originally Posted By: Mark II
You sir have a talent.

Thank you, but you're too kind. They're taking me longer than I want them to; still working out the details of the process I like, and acquiring better tooling. Practice, practice.

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Are you looking for "Constructive Criticism"?. If so, anything I point out will be offered with a solution. If not, feel free to decline my offer. If you prefer, we can do it by PM.

Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 05/18/17 11:15 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Ken61
Are you looking for "Constructive Criticism"?. If so, anything I point out will be offered with a solution.

Yes, I am interested in constructive criticism, and solution recommendations. I am not in the position to attend a school per se.

Feedback here, on in PM, is fine with me. I wish to qualify upfront however that my means are limited, my interest in the craftsmanship of this process is high, I've done three sets and wish to do more, and someday perform a modest amount of this work for others as a second career.

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OK,

A few points. First, the good. Pattern clarity is fine, with no egregious faults visible. I can't tell by the pic, but the pattern should go all the way to the rib, without any dark lines between the pattern and the rib. Tell me if a line is present and I can offer a solution.

Now the bad, but not too bad. Your crolle is nowhere near filled. Too much intermittancy and light lines. The fortunate thing is you have an example of nicely filled crolle by looking at your first effort. You should strive for the same results. This goes back to a point I made earlier, smaller crolle requires many more cycles. Not only rustings, but etchings as well. How many cycles of each did you perform? For me, three iron often takes over 20 rustings and four or five etches. I would judge your barrels to be about half done, still needing the all-important light rustings to fill the crolle and bring out contrast.

The other negative I see is the rib. These ribs have very nice patterns, yours is nowhere near visible. Again, more cycles. Also, I see what may be the beginnings of streaks, which are major faults to be avoided, mostly by proper prep and carding.

All-in-All a worthy effort, and once these issues are addressed you'll be much happier with your result. You can just continue with the cycles as they are now, and progress until the issues have been resolved.

Or, you can reject my critique and be happy with them as they are.

Hope this helps.

Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 05/18/17 11:58 AM.

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Terrific council. A few questions for clarification:

* What order to the alternating rust/etch do you subscribe to? For example, multiple rustings (browning or boiling), and then a single etch after a certain number? Or, rust, etch, rust, etch, etc? I have tried it both ways.

* Wax or lacquer at the end?

* Do you coat the bores, lug and/or lumps with anything to save having the clean them up at the end. I'd prefer to not have to do so much clean up.

To answer your questions:

* I did about half as many passes as you state is needed for 3 iron.

* I have pattern all the way to the rib, and along the sides of the rib, but poor photography skills/environment. I use black plastic putty knives with a bevelled edge to press steel wool into the area between the barrels and ribs for carding.

* The rib itself is showing pattern, faintly.

Thank you. Very kind to provide this feedback.

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First, an initial etch before the first cycle. After that, I etch each time before I dilute the solution by half. Usually, after three to five rusting cycles. So, generally, for three iron it's five etches with around 20 rustings, with the fifth etch at the end. Sometimes more cycles and etches, whatever I think is necessary. It's all subject to how the pattern and contrast are developing. Once I can barely see the pattern, it's time for the etch.

Lacquer, allow ample drying time, then Renaissance Wax. Spraying lacquer is better than brushing.

I coat with shellac, it's easily removable with alcohol.

Easy on the rib and rib edges, they won't be so bright and it'll allow the pattern to build. Be aggressive with rib joints.

Regards
Ken


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Things are getting better, rusting to the point of barely seeing the pattern, and then an etch. It looked well done, and I lacquered it, however it's darkened more than I expected and I think I'll need to strip the lacquer and etch again.

Thoughts for today are how to estimate the lacquered/waxed end result appearance, while the barrels are completely dry. Additionally, I've found it difficult to stock the etchant on the entire barrel quickly enough to not risk the production of some irregularities in the contrast.

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You're omitting two steps. After the rustings, the barrels need to be cured, usually by soaking in an oil, then they are degreased, polished, and finally lacquered.

Etchant is best used in a tank, such as a PVC tube. I believe Stallones has said he brushes his on, so it must be a matter of technique. I brush on vinegar for a clean up, I do it very quickly.

Regards
Ken

Last edited by Ken61; 05/23/17 12:33 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Ken61
You're omitting two steps. After the rustings, the barrels need to be cured, usually by soaking in an oil, then they are degreased, polished, and finally lacquered.

OK, now I see. Yes, missed that in the written process. It wasn't discussed with the fellow who shared his process with me, so I lost track of that.

Originally Posted By: Ken61
Etchant is best used in a tank, such as a PVC tube.

I use a PVC chamber for an etchant tank.

Starting to get a little better I think.


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Clearly better. I would have done more rustings, but I go well into the 20s for three iron.

Regards
Ken


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Thank. Since I missed the oil curing step, I'm stripping the lacquer and rusting some more.

What I was saying earlier, about how the darkening effect of the lacquer is difficult to gauge: I went back and etched again before the photo above because of that. Even wetting the surface doesn't fully show what the lacquer will do to the depth.

Closing in on the process I think. Back shortly with another progress report (image).

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On your next post, put all three pictures in it.


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Originally Posted By: Ken61
You're omitting two steps. After the rustings, the barrels need to be cured, usually by soaking in an oil, then they are degreased, polished, and finally lacquered.

I've cured for nearly 24 hours. Can you comment on how you polish, between degreasing and lacquer? Concerned about taking finish off. Thank you.

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It depends. It's a judgement call. Since my procedure is one I've developed, you'll have to deteremine the degree of abrasive you need by "reading" the barrels, then polish as you see fit.


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Originally Posted By: Ken61
It depends. It's a judgement call. Since my procedure is one I've developed, you'll have to determine the degree of abrasive you need by "reading" the barrels, then polish as you see fit.

My concern is around using something that accomplishes the purpose, polishing, but does not remove the finish that so much work was put into applying.

While the crolle is filling in, and the layers are becoming more defined, they are not retain well enough a "wet" appearance. The look very nice when oil is applied for curing. Degreasing to polish and lacquer dries them out of course. After lacquering they look good, but not as good as when they were oiled.

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An update for those watching me learn (or embarrass myself) in public:

Bought some Renaissance wax for better sheen at the end.

Started over from the white on the 3 iron Oxford to etch as a first step, which is done by some (Gaddy had done so), but not all. Some feel it doesn't make any appreciable difference. So far, I agree with them.

Lastly, "fun" is not what I'd call this process right now. Highly variable is more along the lines of what this is like, however, I'm determined to become good at it.

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Originally Posted By: Ken61
Clearly better. I would have done more rustings, but I go well into the 20s for three iron.

Ken, I believe you mentioned having suggestions for carding the sides and top of top ribs, but protecting the edges from becoming too bright. Would you have time to elaborate on that?

I have suitable backers for getting down in the grooves between barrels and ribs, but overdoing it on the edges.

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A light application of stronger solution, using a swab is probably the best. Apply after you have coated the barrels with whatever strength solution you're using. It requires a very light touch.


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Originally Posted By: Ken61
A light application of stronger solution, using a swab is probably the best. Apply after you have coated the barrels with whatever strength solution you're using. It requires a very light touch.

I think I understand. My interpretation for this is that because the etchant is more powerful, the carding can be less vigorous, resulting in less abuse to the rib edges. Am I reading you right?

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In specific instances. Another situation has to do with uneven solution application. Often, areas of heavier application which were not properly carded can "etch off" and create "light flaws". Usually found along ribs and at muzzle or breech ends.

Last edited by Ken61; 06/08/17 04:44 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Ken61
In specific instances. Another situation has to do with uneven solution application. Often, areas of heavier application which was not properly carded can "etch off" and create "light flaws". Usually found along ribs and at muzzle or breech ends.

Thank you. If you were willing to post a picture or two that speaks to these errors, and others you've mentioned, that would be tremendously beneficial to anyone wanting to give this a try.

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I'm too far into my run, all the faults on my current tubes have been corrected.

The best answer is to develop your technique to the point that you avoid them all together. That takes experience and repetition. By the time you do say, 30 or more sets, you should have it down. laugh

It helps if you're extremely Anal.

Last edited by Ken61; 06/08/17 04:48 PM.

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Got it. Work to do. Thanks! If you have an example in the future, I'm sure we'd all love to see what "this error" and "that error" look like.

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I'm finding that some muzzle and breach end areas are not as keen to take on oxide and display color contrast as the middles. Have focused very purposefully on the prep, and even application of rusting solution. Since it
Is established that the materials can "bleed" into each other (forget the official term used), is it possible that the ends can lose some integrity over the years, making contrast more difficult to achieve?

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All are correctable. All require spot treatments of solutions. If you haven't figured it out already, you'll see that fault correction takes up a huge amount of time, and requires a great deal of judgement. That's the breaks when you're trying to produce fault free results. You'll get it, eventually.

Regards
Ken


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I have no issue with correcting the flaw, having done so on fluid steel barrels. I see the presentation of this particular flaw more frequently on composite barrels and wondered if there was a metallurgical reason for it.

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Very doubtful that there is that much difference in metallurgy along the length of the barrels. I'm in complete agreement with Ken for the likely reasons you are getting variations. It takes time and practice to learn all of the little tricks to do it well. Composite barrels are tougher to do well because of the added etching process. Weaker etching solutions for slightly longer intervals are generally easier to control. Horizontal dunks in the etch are better than vertical dunks which leave one end in the solution for a few seconds longer.


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Originally Posted By: keith
Weaker etching solutions for slightly longer intervals are generally easier to control.

I've stuck with 10% etchant solution thus far, but understand Dr. Gaddy to have reduced that depending on conditions. Will likely work through the same experimentation shortly.

Originally Posted By: keith
Horizontal dunks in the etch are better than vertical dunks which leave one end in the solution for a few seconds longer.

Like others, I'm using a vertical chamber, but am quick to submerge, remove, rinse, and neutralize. The horizontal approach certainly makes sense to move to when I find a suitable vat.

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I'm leaving this one where it is for now. At the stage there have been about 25 rusting cycles, 5 etchings, and no logwood was used. I believe the use of logwood would have abbreviated the number of rustings required. Some state that logwood does nothing for the process, and others state it is essential for high contrast.

In general I find that to be an example of what is frustrating about this process. When starting out, we want to replicate a result, and research how to do so. Quickly we learn that the degree of process variability is high. This leaves a person with little choice but to test a foundation, and purposefully force ones own variability to end up with YOUR process, not someone else's.

This barrel is mine, I like the darker overall appearance which compliments a coin type finish of the action and dark brown furniture, so I'm holding here. The next things to tackle are better crevice tools, logwood boiling tank, and an improved photography environment.


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Still at it, the most recent being a Lefever set. Darker overall than it looked like it was going to be when I stopped etching. It looked close to be being too light, but after baking soda to neutralize, drying, and three coats of wax it has darkened.

Not sure I like Renaissance wax as a top coat. Balistol has a poor effect on the wax. RemOil not as much. Dr. Gaddy stated he preferred lacquer. Perhaps just oil. Good enough for blued barrels and easy to reapply when they're looking dry.

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Lacquered and waxed barrels are not oiled. They get cleaned with a soft cotton or microfiber cloth and rewaxed. Except for the bores, which are oiled after cleaning. Not sure what you're doing.

Last edited by Ken61; 09/07/17 01:38 PM.

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I'm not oiling lacquered or waxed barrels purposefully. If some oil gets on the exterior of the barrels as a result of cleaning the bores, or wiping down the rest of the gun after use, I have found that the wax finish can be compromised by the solution in use; specifically Balistol being the worst. This is a risk to the finish.

Regardless, I don't care for final result with wax and will focus on lacquer.

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