My first post on this forum, I'm looking forward to participating! And I need some advice. This nice old European shotgun followed me home from the Calgary gun show. I'd like to know more about it. All I know is that the 16 ga. barrels are German Krupp steel, both the 28" set and the 32" set are choked R skeet and L extra full, the original 65MM chambers have been lengthened to 70MM (2-3/4") and the only serial number is "5" on the underside of both barrels and the action flat. It bears no makers name, and very few proof marks. I could not find matching proof marks anywhere on line when doing the usual Google search. It is very well made, light, and the action is still crisp and solid. There is no rust on or in the barrels and no significant wear on moving parts. Excellent shape for a gun I estimate at 100 years old. It will become my bird gun when hunting grouse, partridge and pheasant with pointing dogs. Can you shed any light on this guns history or maker?
what you have is a very nice germanic style hammer gun...the markings are unknown to me as well...you are in the right place though to find more about this fine gun...suggest you have the barrel walls measured in front of the chambers and 7 to 9 inches down from the muzzles. so long as you have at least 90 thousands of barrel wall in front of the chambers and 30 thousands down from the muzzles, you should be good to go with low pressure one ounce loads.. if you can import rst brand shells, they are highly recommended for guns like yours...enjoy...
That one has got me too. All my books only list marks applicable to the C.I.P. (Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms). So that rules out Germany, Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, France, Hungary, Yugoslav, (the usual suspects). So I'm wondering if it is one of the other European countries that are not C.I.P. registered such as Denmark or the Netherlands. They will have some sort of Proof House but not one with acceptable standards to be C.I.P. registered. I'm sure someone will come up with something. As a last resort send photos to one of the British Proof Houses http://gunproof.com/ for clarification as someone there is bound to know and they are there to assist. Lagopus.....
.suggest you have the barrel walls measured in front of the chambers and 7 to 9 inches down from the muzzles. so long as you have at least 90 thousands of barrel wall in front of the chambers and 30 thousands down from the muzzles, you should be good to go with low pressure one ounce loads..
exactly the kind of info I was hoping for, I have a bore diameter gauge and can measure the outside at the same spot, so I should be able to determine the barrels thickness.
barrel wall measuring can be tricky...to be super safe, suggest you find a gunsmith with the proper tools and knowledge to confirm that this old gun is a safe shooter with modern ammo...thanks for bringing us something we have not seen before...
Ed Good, could you tell us what proof marks they use in countries that have been disarmed, as you propose for the U.S.?
Originally Posted By: ed good
recognize that there are too many guns in too many hands...reduce those numbers and gun related violence will also be reduced...it is as simple as that...too much of anything is not good.
Originally Posted By: ed good
san fran does not want a gun store...it is their right...
Originally Posted By: ed good
guess no body here has the balls to answer my question:
disarm...seems to work for the rest of the civilized world...
why not us?
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
OK Skeettx, allow me to welcome Longwalker on his first post here.
Welcome to the DoubleGunShop forum Longwalker. You will find a lot of useful information here. But like any internet forum, you will also find people who pretend to be things that they are not. There are guys like Jagermeister who act like they are double-gun experts, yet they do not own even one lousy double gun. Then there's Ed, who seems to be an expert at selling tarted up junk and supporting restrictions on our gun rights. And you will find people like Last Dollar who defend their right to deceive us. You will note that some people are offended by me reminding new guys like you that Trolls like Ed Good or King Brown continually work to undermine our 2nd Amendment rights. But they apparently are not offended by the anti-gunners in our midst. Weird, huh?
There. Do you feel better now Skeettx? To me, that NRA Benefactor Seal means we should always stand up to those who work to undermine our Gun Rights. Always. What does it mean to you?
I just wanted Longwalker to know that we have some anti-gun, anti-2nd Amendment wolves in sheep's clothing lurking here. I think that's being helpful too... knowing who is stabbing us all in the back. Ed pretends he's a gun guy, but his own words betray him. I didn't say those things. Ed did. Ed and King thought their anti-gun rhetoric was all hidden from the world when Dave locked the old Misfire forum. But I saved almost all of it, and Ed doesn't like it a bit. Ed also did not help Longwalker with his initial question.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
some view the current version of a well regulated militia as your local unarmed volunteer fire department...augmented by your local armed town police force.
what used to be militia is now your state's national guard, which is under the command of your state's governor... and your state guard is subject to call up and command of the president of the united states...
Did I mention your anti-hunting rhetoric and support for anti-hunting organizations like PETA too. Ed? Remember this?
again, whats the problem some have with this organization?
Originally Posted By: ed good
if society, via our law makers, deem it necessary to restrict or prohibit our possession of certain classes of arms, then every good citizen should obey the law for the good of the majority.
and if some here wish to discuss further restriction and prohibition of certain classes of arms here, then why not?
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
That's a stumper, for sure. The PF under a crown likely indicates proof with smokeless powder. Maybe a specific type of early bulk smokeless, although F was not among the several types of smokeless initially used in French proof.
Your gun seems to predate most proof houses. Some countries started proofing guns earlier than others. Some countries started proofing earlier to keep cheaper, weaker guns out so their makers did not have to compete. It was always cloaked as a safety measure, and it was. But while British guns were proofed in the early 1800's other countries might not start until 1890's. Some makers had their own marks as well as interim proof marks.
I asked Raimey about these marks last week and got the early Italian thought. Like some others I thought it had a bit of a Germanic look but with no sign of a mark that shows up in the Standard Directory, from any country, I have concluded Raimey is probably on the right track.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
Yeah, a shot in the dark for sure but it is #5 by some maker that used the Rampant Lion in a shield as a trademark & I for one would guess the other marks are not actual proofhouse marks but internal process / proofmarks by the maker, although the possibility exits that it passed thru some odd proofhouse under our radar. I also agree w/ Mr. Brown that the PF surmounted by a crown is for Polvere / Poudre / Powder / Pulver, etc. paired w/ the F. Remote possibility that there are marks on the back sides of the locks or on the hidden portion the frame. But again, the tubeset was sourced directly from Sauer. I do fancy how the tubes were struck to leave a little extra metal for reinforcement, which is hidden by the adornment.
Re the "choke" marking on the barrels: In England, that mark first appeared under the revised rule of 1875. That predates the establishment of government proofhouses in quite a few countries. What we're seeing may be "proprietary" proofmarks by a maker before official govt proofmarks were required. Still open to question, however, where that particular maker was located.
The Italians did use the term choke & note the reinforcement / adornment on the tubes near the frame. Although another gunmaking center could have easily have adopted such.
Not the exact Sauer trademark as seen @ then of the Krupp Steel type, but Sauer did file for protection in Belgium in 1896 & had tubes rolled there. So the Italians / makers of the subject piece could have easily sourced Sauer sanctioned tubes from Liege.
Larry Clown, I just love it when you say that you are IGNORING me, but then you respond to one of my posts like Pavlov's dogs respond to a buzzer.
Of course, I was mistaken about the inception of choke boring and should have known better since it was a point of contention between W.R. Pape, who patented choke boring in 1866, and Dan Lefever, who claimed to have invented it long before either Pape or Fred Kimball. But certainly, you will concede that Krupp Fluid Steel barrels arrived on the scene much later. Scratch that! I know you concede nothing, and can never admit to being wrong about anything. But thanks for showing us all once again that the IGNORE function apparently doesn't work... At least it doesn't when you can't resist peeking.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
Keith as a poster who proudly proclaims you will not use the ignore function, why does it matter to you if someone else does or does not?
Bless your ever positive contributions to our website.
---- Welcome to Longwalker, and a note that what you are seeing play out is free speech on our board. Some who post in answer to questions do not always get it right. And as Keith points out some don't know but post as experts, so their advice is worth what you pay.
Keith of course will ensure you hear about the past sins of some posters even though the Second Amendment is not a yet introduced topic in the thread. He is our self appointed guardian. The good news is he is also very knowledgeable on our focus, doubleguns.
Stay on the board long enough you will get to know the personalities of many. Further you will get the chance learn more about doubleguns.
The Rampant Lion is the symbol of the Brescia proof house, though this gun seems to predate National proof rules of Italy in 1923. I find the shaping of the hammers and action very similar to Italian guns of mine. The fences are more elegantly shaped that any other that I have seen, as is the breech reinforcement. I think the SA mark on the action flats is likely the makers mark. A lovely find indeed, and an intriguing mystery.
Thanks for that contribution Gladys Kravitz, I mean old colonel. To answer your predictably stupid question, I was simply pointing out once again to Larry that he can't bring himself to IGNORE my posts, even though he says he does. Who would've thought you'd stick your whiny hypocritical nose into it? You forgot to mention to Longwalker that you are the nosy, whiny, hypocritical self-appointed thread moderator here. And it's already pretty well established that you don't give a rat's ass about the 2nd Amendment or the trolls who continually work to undermine it. I'm proud to be a guardian of our 2nd Amendment. Someone has to pick up your slack. It's obviously much more important for you to stalk me. You may have noticed that 2nd Amendment threads are pretty much verboten here, so all I can do is remind certain folks like Ed Good about their past anti-gun statements. I know that bothers you immensely, and that fact makes my whole day.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
I have Brescia proofed Bernardelli and Armi San Marco hammer guns with a crown over Rampant Lion proof house mark. Both Wirnsberger and "The Italian Gun" show the Rampant Lion as the Brescia proof house symbol. The OP's gun shows a much more finely rendered Rampant Lion than the later National Proof Rules mark. I do not have any difinative proof that this is a Brescia gun.
Saskbooknut, then we are on the same page. I'll try to find some time to sift thru the threads contained herein & find some of the early Italian examples.
I only call them as I see them Gladys, I mean old colonel... and can't help noting that in your own special hypocritical fashion, you have contributed absolutely nothing to answering the original post.
But I know you'll never see it that way because you are simply much too dense.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
Seldom do I contribute to these posts basically because what I see as response to a very interesting sxs and possibly a source of knowledge unknown. what is wrong with these school girls that cant wait to bare their claws on a personal agenda??? I have several fine guns [sxs rifle, drilling and others I would like to share but it seems the bullsh-- far exceeds the expectation. This site is my favorite of all of them and will continue to be read with great interest but with disappointment in the conduct of the very few.
what is wrong with these school girls that cant wait to bare their claws on a personal agenda??? I have several fine guns [sxs rifle, drilling and others I would like to share but it seems the bullsh-- far exceeds the expectation.
All I will say is that if the annual donation drive has fewer members each year, it should come as no surprise!
I was thinking of posting on how nice this site has been of late. Guess keeth just cant resist his urges to continue to draw this forum into the sewer. Thanks keeth.
Life is too short to have a 'hate on' for so many things or people. Isn't it?
It is a real Shame..This thread started out to be one of the most interesting in a long while...A lovely mystery gun the subject...Then Mr. Dementia enters with his same old attacks. BORING and non contributory....
I like Keith. He keeps it real and puts the dingalings on blast. The way I see it, if Keith's putting you on blast...you probably deserved it. And he does so over and over again by posting what these ding dongs have either written or said. He doesn't seem slanderous to me.. And....over the years, Keith has also contributed many technical and otherwise helpful answers in regards to shotguns...much more so than many other so called "contributors". Don't say or write stupid shit...and Keith won't blow you up. Seems simple.
I like Keith. He keeps it real and puts the dingalings on blast. The way I see it, if Keith's putting you on blast...you probably deserved it. And he does so over and over again by posting what these ding dongs have either written or said. He doesn't seem slanderous to me.. And....over the years, Keith has also contributed many technical and otherwise helpful answers in regards to shotguns...much more so than many other so called "contributors". Don't say or write stupid shit...and Keith won't blow you up. Seems simple.
The downside is that it turns into personal fights between members and is a bit off-putting for newcomers. Would you want to go to a party and sit at the table where guests are undermining and hurling insults at each other? It's not a good look for the forum or for our beloved sport, really.
Yes, please! back on track would be nice. This has turned out to be quite a "lively" first post on this site! Thanks for all the help so far, opinions, facts and otherwise.
There's the answer. Don't feed the trolls. I have Keith on ignore.
The rampant lion--unfortunately not too clear in the photo--does look like the early ones used by the Govt proof house, which didn't exist until 1920. Lee Kennett says there was a private proof house in Brescia as early as 1910 "and probably for many years before", so that may be the answer . . . although all the rampant lion examples I can find are surmounted by a crown. And I suppose the PF under a crown could be a predecessor of PSF, which has been an Italian proofmark since the very beginning.
I like Keith. He keeps it real and puts the dingalings on blast. The way I see it, if Keith's putting you on blast...you probably deserved it. And he does so over and over again by posting what these ding dongs have either written or said. He doesn't seem slanderous to me.. And....over the years, Keith has also contributed many technical and otherwise helpful answers in regards to shotguns...much more so than many other so called "contributors". Don't say or write stupid shit...and Keith won't blow you up. Seems simple.
So any questioning of him justifies his diatribes and name calling?
That includes his diverting posts injecting out of context attacks in other threads.
You have a high tolerance for tom foolery, your patience does you credit, Keith's name calling and off topic post show him to act as he accuses others of, in excess.
Sad as you point out he is knowledgeable on doubleguns and is capable of good posts.
Most here are capable of manners he does not demonstrate in many of his posts.
I guess a key is hiding one's identity; it reveals much about some posters.
I do not accept your proposition that his conduct is justified. It is possible to call people out in context and with some level of civility his posts often lack.
Last edited by old colonel; 04/27/1706:11 PM. Reason: spelling and addition
PSF is difinative smokeless proof, since 1951. PF with the crown on this gun, indicates final proof perhaps, not specifying smokeless. I find it hard to believe that this gun would only be proved for black though.
Since we're still engaging in conjecture and guessing games about the origin of this hammer gun, I'll toss out the theory that this could be some European version of a Lunch-Box Special with false proof marks to give it an air of legitimacy. That's as good as anything put out there so far. Larry seems to have it narrowed down to about a 50-60 year range somewhere between England, France, and Italy, but that will no doubt expand.
I was a bit taken aback to return here after a day of yard work and an evening of libations, to find that I was the victim of a full frontal Libtard attack from the usual gaggle of Obama worshipers. Actually, a few of the usual suspects are missing, so I'll conclude they all moved to Canada to live with King Brown after Trump won the election. I found it strange that Gladys... I mean old colonel, did not admonish Last Dollar for making not one, not two, but three posts that offered nothing pertinent to the topic... Just more of his usual agenda driven stupidity. And it was no surprise to see a snide, but totally off topic remark from dla (sic), the Liberal Left Mayor of Munchkinland. The ever brilliant Larry Clown is still IGNORING me by responding to me. Wow. And I am just devastated that poor pod is so traumatized that he can't share his info about his fine guns. Imagine how he'd feel when Jagermeister advised him to sell them and buy an A-5! Actually, I'm surprised he came back after that mean old franc-otte and Kensal beat up on him in 2012:
Originally Posted By: pod
frac-otte-kensalrise: well im old and a little forgetful and not the best english major or use of the english language but i try. i want to thank you for making me feel like a dunce. i really dont poise a threat to your knowlege in the gun world. again thank you and i will remove myself along with many others from this forum you two should be part of the welcoming committe.
Of course, Last Dollar made a similar drama-laced farewell, but returned too. What is it with these guys who repeatedly respond to you when they claim to IGNORE you, and with the drama queens who leave in an estrogen fueled huff, but can't just stay gone? Must be a Liberal thing. And Leverhead apparently thinks that I'm bad for the forum and our sport, but Ed Good's anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric is OK for the forum and our sport. You can't make this shit up! I am totally unimpressed by all of them, but what the hell... I'll accept full responsibility for the fact that Dr. Gaddy and Lowell Glenthorne no longer post here if it makes him feel better.
But then, after Last Brain Cell... I mean Last Dollar, made his third off topic post with another salvo, along with his plea to return to the topic, which he himself had added nothing to, except his usual crap... and after the original poster Longwalker had exhorted all to play nice and return to the original topic... After all that... Gladys Kravitz, I mean old colonel, just couldn't resist returning with more of her own hypocritical and decidedly off topic whining and complaining.
Gladys just had to lecture LeFusil for saying that he appreciated what I say and do here. And wouldn't you just know it, none of the gaggle of Libtards had any problem with Gladys making yet another off topic post that contributed absolutely nothing to solving the mystery of the origins of the gun! Certainly not Last Dollar! Shocking! But Gladys obviously feels justified, as our self appointed thread moderator, don't you Gladys? I thought we had reached an understanding awhile back. Guess not. Here we go again.
Here's a thought Gladys, I mean old colonel. I'll agree to conform to your hypocritical and disingenuous idea of "manners" when you agree to stop being a tight-assed hypocritical pinhead. In other words, when hell freezes over. You also have to agree to stop these repeated thread diversions. Actually, there is nothing about you that I'd wish to emulate, ever. People like you with your faux civility disgust me.
LeFusil, thank you very much for your kind words. So sorry you had to endure a lecture from Mrs. Kravitz though. Now we'll both have trouble sleeping at night, having invoked her stern and frequently unintelligible disapproval.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
PSF is difinative smokeless proof, since 1951. PF with the crown on this gun, indicates final proof perhaps, not specifying smokeless. I find it hard to believe that this gun would only be proved for black though.
PSF has been an Italian proof ("smokeless powder definitive proof") since 1925. But from 1925-50, it was surmounted by a crown. The crown was changed to the current star in a circle after that.
PSF stands for "polvere senza fumo"--smokeless powder.
So the issue here is that the subject gun is marked PF surmounted by a crown, and we have no reference to confirm this mark's meaning.
That is correct. The material I have on Italian proofs, from Lee Kennett, only goes back as far as 1920. Looks like what you have there is an earlier gun, before proofmarks became compulsory under Italian law.
To the OP, take note....only agree with his views, believe in his politics....or face his incestuous online bully tactics. He could actually be a study case for some psychology students, and has just added some more data to review. He has made himself the 'gate keeper' on this forum. much to many's chagrin. Has zero self control (as you will see with his response to me) and a true psychosis.
A beautiful gun BTW. That detail at the bottom of the barrel, at the action is quite nice. I wonder if it was forged on?
Welcome to one of the best, if not the best, doublegun forums around!
Last edited by dal; 04/28/1710:20 AM.
Life is too short to have a 'hate on' for so many things or people. Isn't it?
There is a glimmer of joy and discovery in the responses I have received from my first ever post, but overshadowed with an overwhelming sense of disappointment. I was expecting enthusiastic discussion and sharing of knowledge about a subject we all have some enthusiasm for. Instead I got a really heavy dose of interpersonal attacks, peevish self interest, bad manners, and typical grumpy old man behaviour. I have been accused of being a grumpy old man myself far too often, so I aspire to better behaviour. I'm not sure I want to hang out on a site that is dominated by bad behaviour. Offer me some encouragement please.
Reality says that as long as Keith is allowed free rein to bully and harass people this forum will continue to go downhill...Lots of really good folks here....BUT
If you look at a lot of the post, most don't degrade like this and usually stay on topic. There is a lot of good info here so don't get discouraged, ignore the personality clashes, and if something gets aimed at you have a thick skin and don't fuel the fire. The one thing nice about sights like this is you can exit with a touch of a button and return after the fires burn themselves out or have gone on to attack someone else.
By the way nice shotgun, after seven pages it looks to be a very nice Italian hammer shotgun with German sourced barrels.
There is a glimmer of joy and discovery in the responses I have received from my first ever post, but overshadowed with an overwhelming sense of disappointment. I was expecting enthusiastic discussion and sharing of knowledge about a subject we all have some enthusiasm for. Instead I got a really heavy dose of interpersonal attacks, peevish self interest, bad manners, and typical grumpy old man behaviour. I have been accused of being a grumpy old man myself far too often, so I aspire to better behaviour. I'm not sure I want to hang out on a site that is dominated by bad behaviour. Offer me some encouragement please.
I spend a lot of time reading old threads on this site, and the members here are a huge wealth of information. Unfortunately, this place is used as a battle ground sometimes. It's ugly, hurts the site, and paints an ugly portrait of a supposedly polite armed society.
It's best to ignore the cancerous arguments and focus on replies that are directly made to the OP, though I find that hard to do at times.
Interesting touchmarks low on the flats but I can't say if it is a Rampant Lion on the Crown over Crossed Arms in a shield? Ones eyes plays tricks after a time & you see Rampant Lions even in your sleep.
Maybe look at it this way. I view this forum a little like really good pub with a varied offering and varied clientele. There's a lot of very interesting viewpoints and information here. Your post, to be specific is very interesting and I've been watching it without comment thinking my own thoughts (Scandinavian? Central / Southern Europe? etc.). The subject has been very worthwhile on the whole. Like a pub, there's always the chance you might have some drunken bums get into an incoherent rant (not taking sides here) or sit next to some prattling gossipy old bags, but on the whole that doesn't stop me going back to a good "local". I know it's disappointing; I get disappointed myself to see good threads degenerate into drivel but there's still a lot of good info here.
But back to the topic at hand. I found some of the marks very interesting in that they seemed identical to some Swedish and Finnish ones. I'm probably wrong about that as it only came from scanning the internet for various obscure proof marks. The main point here is just to say thanks for stimulating some interesting comments and indirectly raising my knowledge a little.
Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.
Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without
prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and
restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.
![[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]](http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/57865_80x60.jpg)
