doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lefever questions

Keith understood - Sounds quite nice.

Keith;
The engraving you describe does sound very E'ish. As noted above I do have two G grade guns with sear adjustment screws, one in the 20K range & the other 29K.
An FE @ #38,025 does not have the sear adjusters but has nickel plated triggers.It does have chain damascus barrels with an E stamped on them though the rest of the gun is pure F. It is my understanding that originally all grades had the sear adjusters but at some point they were dropped on all grades below an E. Not sure if any H's ever had them or not, none of mine do. My lowest no'd H however is in the mid 40K range.
The "Late" H grade I mentioned is a 6� lb gun. It has a closer firing pin spacing than my other 12's but bar width is the same. My one & only 16 has the XX frame but still weighs 6 3/4lb. It has a narrower bar than any of my 12's, so while admitting not truly enough data I had sorta assumed the XX stamping represented this narrower bar on the frame. Firing pin spacing as well as width & height of the standing breech varied according to the weight of the barrels fitted.
When you refer to the small frame 12's are you meaning the size of the standing breech or also including the bar width? I do not have one but have heard of some 12's with XX frames.

Miller, sorry for the delay in responding to your questions, but I've been working a ridiculous number of hours the last few weeks. I too have heard of 12 ga. guns being built on the XX frame, but have never seen one. Yesterday, I finally got the chance to take some measurements to answer your questions. I grabbed my FE 12 gauge SN 48xxx, along with 3 other 12 gauge Lefevers, and 3 on the XX frame, a 20 gauge and 2 16 gauge guns. The 12 gauge guns were H 27xxx, G 16255 (a two hook gun), and DS 60xxx. The 20 gauge was DS 64xxx, and the 16's were G 25xxx and a delightful straight gripped Damascus barreled GE 48xxx that is only 300 serial numbers apart from my very light 12 ga. FE.

It would be nice if I could attach a spreadsheet with all of my measurements and weights in neat rows and columns. Instead, I'll give you the numbers at various points on the action of the FE, and then give you the dimensions at the same points, in the same order, for the others.

The weight of the 12 ga. FE is 6lb.-3oz. The weight of the barrels is 2lb.-11oz- 28" long. The width of the breech (point A) is 2.271". The width of the bar at the very end of the flat just before the knuckle radius (point B) is 1.286". The width of the action flat was measured right behind where the cocking hook sticks up because the width of the flat seems to taper somewhat on most of the guns measured. On this FE, it (point C) was 1.595" The overall length of the bar from the standing breech to the front of the knuckle was tough to measure with a digital caliper, but was approximately 3.193" (point D). The thickness of the bar at point B (point Bx) is .848". The thickness of the action at point C (point Cx)is .865". The height of the standing breech (point SBH) was measured right across a firing pin and was 1.163". The width of the action just behind the breech balls (point E) was 1.560". The firing pin spacing (FPS)was 1.101".

The numbers for 12 ga. H 27xxx in the same order are: 7lb.-7oz. overall. 3 lb.-11oz. barrels- 28" long. Point A- 2.289". Point B-1.420". Point C- 1.604". Point D- (approx.)3.192". Point Bx- .870". Point Cx- .870". Point SBH- 1.200". Point E- 1.555". and FPS was 1.108".

The numbers for G 16xxx, the two hook gun, were: 7lb.8oz. overall. 3lb.-10oz. barrels- 30" long. Point A- 2.268". Point B- 1.454". Point C 1.609". Point D- (approx.)3.193". Point Bx- .860". Point Cx- .866". Point SBH- 1.136". Point E- 1.550". and FPS was 1.122".

The numbers for 12 ga DS 60xxx were 7lb.12oz. overall. 3lb.-13oz. barrels- 30" long. Point A- 2.359". Point B- 1.320". Point C- 1.602". Point D- (approx.)3.194". Point Bx- .850". Point Cx- .868". Point SBH- 1.213". Point E- 1.575". And FPS was 1.165".

The numbers for the XX frame 20 ga. DS 64xxx were 6lb.-1oz. overall. 2lb.-11oz. barrels- 28" long. Point A- 2.080". Point B- 1.289". Point C- 1.535". Point D- (approx,)3.193". Point Bx- .845". Point Cx- .865". Point SBH- 1.056". Point E- 1.530". And FPS was 1.024".

XX frame 16 ga. G 25xxx was 6lb.-2oz. overall. 2lb.-10oz. barrels 28" long. Point A- 2.075". Point B- 1.253". Point C- 1.537". Point D- (approx.) 3.195". Point Bx- .840". Point Cx- .870". Point SBH- 1.059". Point E- 1,499". And FPS was 1.045".

XX frame 16 ga. GE 48xxx was 6lb.-3oz. overall. 2lb.-9oz. Damascus barrels 28" long. Point A- 2.105". Point B- 1.313". Point C- 1.540". Point D (approx.) 3.192". Point Bx- .848". Point Cx- .868". Point SBH- 1.086". Point E- 1.510". And FPS was 1.025".

Not surprisingly, most of the weight reduction in my 12 ga. FE was in the barrels which were nearly as light as those of the small frame 20 and 16 ga. guns. I was also not surprised to see that the breech width, standing breech height, and firing pin spacing were all smaller for the earlier two hook 12 ga. G grade than for the later 12 ga. guns. I've noticed this before in some earlier guns, and I think thicker barrels at the breech may have been a response to newer smokeless powders.

I guess I wasn't too surprised at the variability in dimensions between guns given that these guns had a lot of hand finishing versus the soul-less CNC cookie-cutter guns made today. My very light FE 12 ga. definitely has a frame that is smaller than the other 12's in most areas of measurement, but not in all areas. I found that strange. And I noted that the FE frame was actually a few thousandths smaller than the small XX frame guns in a couple points, yet it was the second widest at point E directly behind the breech balls. I actually expected more uniformity in this area because I tried a stock from a 12 ga DSE on another 16 ga. XX frame several years ago, and it fit almost perfectly. I probably should have omitted the approximate measurements for the overall length of the action bar since the Fowler Sylvac digital verniers I used weren't the best tool for the job. But it served to show that the hook (or compensating ball socket) to breech length is very close in all of the guns I measured. I hope to find the time to measure several others including that very light I grade I mentioned earlier, which is my second lightest 12 gauge Lefever at about 6lb.-4 or 5oz., as I recall. I'd like to measure a couple 10 gauge guns too.

"Miller, sorry for the delay in responding to your questions, but I've been working a ridiculous number of hours the last few weeks. I too have heard of 12 ga. guns being built on the XX frame, but have never seen one".

For whatever it's worth, I did once own a 12-bore Lefever with the "XX" stamp on the frame. The gun was a G Grade extractor model with original (according to Buck Hamlin) 26" Damascus barrels, double triggers, and capped pistol grip stock with Lefever logo butt plate. The serial number was just under 19000; and although it featured the late large cocking hook mechanism, the gun was originally designed for an another cocking system as the frame featured what remained of the original joint check pin (pin heads visible on each side of frame but center section in frame milled away). The stock on this gun was of a much higher grade walnut than the typical "G"; and featured modern dimensions. I don't recall its weight, but it was very light; and I hunted with the gun quite a bit for a couple of years before Hal Jacques convinced me to sell him the gun. Hal sent the gun to Buck Hamlin for restoration (finishes only, balance of gun was excellent inside and out). I saw the gun afterwards and Buck had done his usual great job. Hal passed away a few years ago from cancer, and I believe he'd sold most of is Lefever collection prior to his passing. I've no idea who may own this gun now, but it is a very interesting piece; hopefully you'll remember this description and run across it some day.

Great discussion.
Beautiful Lefevers.