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#478227 04/19/17 09:56 PM
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I a while back I posted a note about making a nice custom gun out of an SKB 100 20 gauge. Well, I bought one. I already had a 20 gauge I/M with 24" barrels, but what I wanted and bought was a 20 gauge M/F with 28" barrels. Both are in like new condition.

The first one I cannot hit anything with. I mean nothing. I simple going away trap shot perfectly covered - clean miss 8 out of 10 times. I'm not a great shot but I'm not THAT bad.

So this new gun arrived and the first chance to shoot it is at the 19th annual Bunny Hunt and Poker Match. Not many bunnies die (no shotguns allowed), but we shoot a lot of other guns and have a good time then eat too much, drink too much and play nickle poker. I digress. In the shooting other guns department however, we line up with shotguns and we all shoot at each thrown bird. So the shooting is fast and one never knows if he was the one that really broke a particular target for sure. But with this gun I got the feeling I was hitting more than my fair share. Far more.

So tonight I shot a couple rounds of regulation trap. And I hit very well with it. The shots I missed, I knew were misses before the shot cleared the muzzle, but the others broke exactly as expected. Though I have not shot regulation trap in 2 yrs, I shot my average easily. (~20/25). This gun seems to shoot very, very well.

But here is the thing, after the bunny hunt, I was cleaning it and I noticed that the barrels seemed bent. They seemed to sweep upwards like a Godwit's bill. And it was pretty extreme. A steel rule laid on the rib gives better than a 1/8" gap between the rule and the rib in the middle of the barrel. On the 24" gun, the rule is dead nuts flat on the rib for the whole length of the barrels. Clearly, this gun has been bent - a lot.

So, bending it upwards would make the gun shoot high, no? But if I can guess my biggest failures at shooting shotguns it is that I cheek the gun too low, and I tend to look down on the barrels because the buttstock is too low, relative to where it should be. Thus, I often assume that my misses are high. But this gun should make high shots even worse. Yet, it wasn't worse, it was much, much better.

Can anyone explain this to me?


Had I noticed the curve when I took delivery of the gun, I might have sent it back. But now that I've shot it this well, I am looking at my Evans, Merkel, Cashmore, and a few others and thinking maybe they need to be made into Godwit guns too. Especially that Evans.

Last edited by BrentD; 04/19/17 09:59 PM.

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Two words, Brent.

Pattern plate

Much mystery will be dispelled.

SRH


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Perhaps. but that's not what I'm asking. Are bent barrels common? I've heard of it, but never seen it and I expected it to be more subtle than this. And wouldn't this exacerbate my problem.

Here it is not just pattern, but point of aim with a hastily mounted gun. Apparently rather than making the stock dimensions work to get a "natural point of aim" where the barrels would hit, here the barrels have been bent to make them hit where the factory stock wants to point them. This seems much simpler, but I don't know much about it. Are there some articles one could point to on the net that explain this well?


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I did not mean to shoot a pattern plate to evaluate the pattern itself, but to discern where the gun is shooting in relation to the point of aim. That is really the only reason I shoot at my grease plate anyway.

SRH


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Brent, set a target paper at about 16 yds. . Start at a low ready position raise the gun to your face and fire when the mount is complete as in hunting. fire 8-10 shots at a single aiming point with the right barrel. Change targets and do the same with the left. With a consistent mount you will be able to see the center of the several patterns. This will show you where it shoots for you. Then repeat with one of the other guns you shoot well. Then do it with the SKB you don't shoot well. What matters, is where the patterns hit not how much the barrel is bent. Bending barrels can be a viable method of fitting a gun, if the adjustments to the stock are too extreme to be viable. Shotgun tubes bend fairly easily, intentionally or not. Also regulation of the barrels are not guaranteed. If it shoots where you look don't try to make adjustments to gun AQ based on information from gun B

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Originally Posted By: BrentD
....I cheek the gun too low, and I tend to look down on the barrels because the buttstock is too low, relative to where it should be. Thus, I often assume that my misses are high....

Only curious about this point. Would the comb of the stock be too high? The other thought I had was can you do the sight inside the tube exercise with the line on the wall to get a feel for actual bend in the barrels. Is it possible that your straight edge is evaluating how the rib was set and not a bend? Just thoughts since your shooting isn't matching up with your predictions.

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I've heard of bending the barrels of single barrel muzzleloading fowlers to change the POI, in fact, I have done it myself once learning about it. Don't know about a SxS.

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Might just be the rib is a bit sway-backed and the barrels are straight?

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The recommendations above are all valid, but they are time consuming. Also, because you are now worried about the barrels, you will start to compensate with your head placement. The easiest thing to do now is get a friend who is a good shot and take the gun to a pond or field of plowed ground. Let him shoot a few snap shots a sticks. While such casual testing is not necessarily effective for small problems, if your barrels are bent as much as suspected the other shooter will see it in a few shots.

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I'm not worried about the barrels. I'm rather liking them. But they seem to be shooting in a direction (down) that is the opposite of what I anticipated. Yes, I need to pattern them. I don't keep a grease plate in my backyard for this purpose like all of you, but I'll set up some butcher paper on a frame and see what happens.

BTW, for sure the barrels bend. It is not just the rib, which was my first thought. It is quite visible when looking in the bores.

I don't think the comb is too high. If it was, the recoil would crack me on the zygomatic arch and that doesn't happen, though it is a problem with some rifles in certain situations.

Anyway, it is interesting that it shoots as well as it does when I think it should be much worse. I'm happy that it does, and I'll shoot it a few more times before I make any final decisions on its fate, but right now, it seems more than worthy of restocking, and maybe even engraving a Godwit or two on the action. It definitely has potential for pheasants and quail.


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Brent, couple questions/comments not related to the possible bend in the barrels:

1. Are you sure your first SKB 20ga has 24" barrels? If so, they've been cut. The Ithaca SKB 20's choked IC/M came with 25" barrels.

2. If the stock is too low, the problem isn't that you'd be looking down on the barrels. Rather, it'd be the opposite (unless you raise your head and don't cheek the stock): You wouldn't be able to see the barrels. If your cheek is firmly on the stock and you're seeing too much barrel, it's because the stock is too high. Not enough drop. On quite a few older American doubles, the stocks have so much drop that you won't see any barrel at all unless you shoot with your head up/off the stock.

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A few years back, before the advent of adjustable combs; it was a common practice among some (not all) trap shooters to bend the barrels up. I watched John Storm do it. I watched Bueford Bailey do it.
They used several methods, including putting the gun's barrels between a semi trucks dual tires and bending them up. John Storm had a more sophisticated system, using a vice device he kept with him.
So, yes, it has been done.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, Ne.


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Larry,
The first SKB is probably 25". That sounds oddly familiar now that I think about it. But they are the "short" barrels rather than the long barrels that are on the M/F version that is the second SKB.

My problem is that I do not cheek the stock consistently where it needs to be. I often shoot with my head to high. That said, that first SKB wouldn't hit anything no matter how carefully I hoisted the gun. That gun certainly needs to be patterned (or better, sold). Anyway, my shooting form is not good and somehow this new gun is playing into it in a good way.

I wish it was a nicer gun but maybe I can make it that way. I know they can be fitted for double triggers, and that would help. New wood, a little engraving, and maybe it will be a functional and nice, if not elegant, gun.


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Brent, it will be 25" if it's factory and hasn't been cut.

If your short barreled gun is also a Model 100, they have something of a cult following with grouse and woodcock hunters. Short barrels, light, relatively open chokes. But they are hard guns to shoot well at targets, because they are both short and light. Either put a beavertail forend on those guns (like the 200's or the 280's) to add a bit more weight forward, or make the barrels longer, like 28". Either will make for a better target gun. But the problem with the long barrels is that they're choked tighter, which means they aren't such a great choice for skeet. Too bad Ithaca didn't offer those 28" barreled Model 100's with more open chokes.

Try pre-mounting that short barreled SKB and shooting low house birds from station 7 on the skeet field. That will likely tell you if the gun isn't shooting where you aim it. If you're not hitting there, then a pattern board will tell you which way you're off, and how far. Or rather the gun's off, if you're pre-mounting.

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So, now we're back to where we began, a pattern board.

Why make it so hard? Go to a pattern board/grease plate right off the bat and see where the gun is shooting ......... instead of guessing by shooting at the water, and plowed dirt.

"I don't keep a grease plate in my backyard for this purpose like all of you, but I'll set up some butcher paper on a frame and see what happens."

Don't know if that was some kind of a "poke" or not, but you don't have to have one in your "backyard" to have access to one. And, the paper works just as good, just a whole lot slower.

SRH


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L. Brown #478422 04/21/17 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Brent, it will be 25" if it's factory and hasn't been cut.

Just measured it. 25" it is. It seems to be exactly the same as the new gun, just shorter. Both are model 100s. When I bring it up, they are both about the same. Both feel slightly short to me, but in any event, they are not different in anyway I can discern except barrel length, curvature, and the ugly orange fiber optic bead on the 28" version. I assume that is screwed or glued on. It has to go. The short one has a simple silver bead.


Quote:
If your short barreled gun is also a Model 100, they have something of a cult following with grouse and woodcock hunters. Short barrels, light, relatively open chokes. But they are hard guns to shoot well at targets, because they are both short and light. Either put a beavertail forend on those guns (like the 200's or the 280's) to add a bit more weight forward, or make the barrels longer, like 28". Either will make for a better target gun. But the problem with the long barrels is that they're choked tighter, which means they aren't such a great choice for skeet. Too bad Ithaca didn't offer those 28" barreled Model 100's with more open chokes.


I'm happy with the tighter chokes. I will use it on pheasants more than anything and mixed birds in Nebraska this fall. I don't shoot targets seriously or even semiseriously. But I will probably shoot them weekly this year just because a friend of mine wants to shoot and I enjoy it. But I don't get serious about shotgunning targets other than I try hard. Rifles are different that way...

Quote:
Try pre-mounting that short barreled SKB and shooting low house birds from station 7 on the skeet field. That will likely tell you if the gun isn't shooting where you aim it. If you're not hitting there, then a pattern board will tell you which way you're off, and how far. Or rather the gun's off, if you're pre-mounting.


Premounting or not, I can't hit with it. It is abysmal. Or I am abysmal when using it. With my other doubles I am an average shooter I suppose. But nothing makes me hit with that short gun. I have tried lacing pads on it to make it longer and that was no help either.


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Originally Posted By: Stan
So, now we're back to where we began, a pattern board.

Why make it so hard? Go to a pattern board/grease plate right off the bat and see where the gun is shooting ......... instead of guessing by shooting at the water, and plowed dirt.


Cuz right off the bat, I don't have access to one. I made the original post immediately after coming home with a gun that really surprised the heck out of me and I was just wanting to share my experience and see what others might have to say about upward bent barrels that seem to shoot so well, especially given my predilection towards not fully mounting the gun when I shoot sometimes. I am still astounded that a gun with barrels bent like this shoots anywhere close to well. I've never heard oof such things and it seems that few to none here have seen this done in a significant degree. It certainly is new to me.

Quote:
"I don't keep a grease plate in my backyard for this purpose like all of you, but I'll set up some butcher paper on a frame and see what happens."

Don't know if that was some kind of a "poke" or not, but you don't have to have one in your "backyard" to have access to one. And, the paper works just as good, just a whole lot slower.

SRH


Don't read too much into it. I can shoot on my property, but I don't have this set up at moments notice. The local range has a pattern board, but it is not accessible when the middle trap house is in use - which is most of the time, including last Wednesday. I'll get it done, and I'll let you know what I find.

Brent


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Brent, odd that your 25" Ithaca SKB is missing the RayBar sight. Came on all of the guns imported by Ithaca. Might be someone (like you) didn't like it. But maybe it'd shoot straighter if it were still there. smile

Seriously, I'd sell that gun you can't shoot, if I were you--unless you determine it shoots so far off that you'd be cheating the buyer. Considering the gun seems to be that far off for you, you might want to consider shooting from a rest (a bag of shot or something on a portable table), like you'd zero in a rifle. If it's off that way, you know it's REALLY off, and the problem is the gun and not you and how you're shooting it.

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Stan is very right that the way to understand any gun is to put in the work with a pattern board. You will fall right into his camp if you are going to use it for long range work. Bent barrels can only function well at specific limit of range.

I come from a different background and knew a lot of close range shooters, who only looked at the way the target broke and refused to pattern, for fear of losing confidence in the gun. Yes, it sounds silly. But I met a guy who won championships with a gun, patterned it, saw holes like a sieve, and ended up selling the gun!

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L. Brown is exactly right that a sight of larger or smaller size will change your point of aim. Your eye only focuses on the TOP of the bead.

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Well it is time for the next installment.

I hauled a target frame out back and cleared the timber of trespassers (mushroom season is hell for trespassing).

At 20 yds, I found that the Short SKB shoots the improved barrel to very nicely to center. The Modified barrel is slightly high and very slightly left.

The Long SKB shoots the Modified to center, and the Full barrel is slightly low and right.

All of this was very disappointing, as I anticipated great differences between each gun. Nothing that would explain my poor shooting however.

I hate to think that is just the orange bead that has me shoot it so much better. But all my other guns have silver beads on them, like the short SKB yet I shoot all of them just fine.

Unfortunately, the barrels will not swap between the two guns. They are close, but they won't go, so I can't see how each shoots on the other's action. Not sure what that would prove anyway. However, as best as I can line them up side by side, I see no major differences in stock drop or anything else.

Larry, I thought that all the short SKBs had silver beads on them. I was sure of it. Do you know how these things are attached? If I can swap them, it would be interesting to see how they both do on the other gun.

Brent


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hmmm, I see all the SKBs on Gunbroker have the orange bead.


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Brent,
Over the years(too many of them 😀) I have come to the realization that I do not shoot short barrels doubles to my satisfaction. I have had a number of 25" Ithaca/SKB's, V. Bernardelli's, and various Spanish guns. Even a 24" Parker. Barrel regulation on all of those guns was fine and stock dimensions were close enough. Only problem was not enough birds fell down. A few years ago I faced reality, I do not shoot short barreled guns well and sold all of them.
My current favorite upland guns both have 29" barrels. Very satisfied with my shooting.

I have been working at a private club for the last 15 years. When I set sporting clays shooters up with loaner guns I never give them a gun shorter than 28". If they can handle the weight I'll set them up with a 30".
IMHO short barrels don't work well for most folks.

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Brent, the RayBar was an Ithaca "thing". You've doubtless seen SKB sxs, made after Ithaca stopped importing them, that have the standard front bead sight.

DLA, back when I first started shooting skeet (early 70's), the vast majority of skeet shooters shot guns with 26" barrels. Seemed to work well enough for them. The difference, I think, is that those guns were not both short and light, which is the case with the Ithaca SKB Model 100 in 20ga, and with most short-barreled sxs. Skeet guns may have been short-barreled and choked for close shots, but they weren't made for grouse and woodcock hunters. Too heavy to tote through the brush.

That being said, Mr. Churchill seems to have done fairly well convincing British shooters that a 25" barreled 12ga can work out quite well on driven birds--which is a game where swing is important, as it is at skeet. His guns were lighter than skeet guns, but heavier than the smallbore shorties--which don't work so well when you get a lot of crossing shots or other opportunities where swing is a big factor.

When I'm hunting grouse and woodcock, I carry a 5 1/2# Parker Reproduction 28ga. I don't own any guns that weigh much over 7 pounds. But I'll shoot consistently better at skeet with a 30" British 12ga that weighs 6 1/2#. Not a typical target gun for sure. Nor, on the other hand, is it the gun I want to carry when I'm wandering through the woods and doing a lot of one-handed carrying. But then swing isn't as big a factor shooting grouse and woodcock as it is at skeet or sporting clays. And weight is a much bigger factor than it is when one is shooting targets.

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Larry,
I agree that weight is a major factor on short barreled guns. Short and light SxS's is what the manufacturers and outdoor press told us we needed in the early 70's and we bought into that. All of my field guns had "fashionable" 26 inch barrels. I can remember passing on a Parker CHE because the barrels were too long. One of my larger gun buying mistakes. And don't forget that era's white line spacers.

Regarding Mr. Churchill and his XXV's. Perhaps the design was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. Mr. Churchill wanted to sell guns and had great marketing skills and shooting ability. I believe that those points were responsible for the XXV's success.
I can't remember seeing a single XXV on a driven shoot. Today barrels are likely to be over 30" and probably an O/U.

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Brent,

The Raybar sight screws out and will very likely scratch the top of your rib.

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I did some looking around last night and discovered that they do unscrew. I'll give it a try later this week.

I am not convinced that I shoot it so poorly because it is short and light. I have missed too many straight away pheasants and quail with it. However, I cannot provide a better explanation at this point. So, operator error seems to be the only viable explanation, regardless of how I feel about my shooting abilities.

I'll shoot it some more and see what happens. I'll try swapping beads between the two guns too and see how that changes things.

It has been an interesting comparison to play with so far.
.


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Brent, hang the guns from a string with a loop to check the balance point. The longer gun may be enough weight forward to help achieve a better follow through. Let me know if you are going to part company with the short one. Mark Robson PS glad your face healed up for your incident.

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Originally Posted By: DLA
Larry,
I agree that weight is a major factor on short barreled guns. Short and light SxS's is what the manufacturers and outdoor press told us we needed in the early 70's and we bought into that. All of my field guns had "fashionable" 26 inch barrels. I can remember passing on a Parker CHE because the barrels were too long. One of my larger gun buying mistakes. And don't forget that era's white line spacers.

Regarding Mr. Churchill and his XXV's. Perhaps the design was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. Mr. Churchill wanted to sell guns and had great marketing skills and shooting ability. I believe that those points were responsible for the XXV's success.
I can't remember seeing a single XXV on a driven shoot. Today barrels are likely to be over 30" and probably an O/U.

Dennis


Dennis, an XXV would certainly be out of place on a "high bird" shoot. But then from what I've read (having shot only "normal" driven birds for the most part), ANY sxs is regarded as a less efficient tool when one is after the very high ones.

I agree that Churchill was looking for something different, and seems to have found it. Those guns, I think, were popular enough "in the day" to show that it wasn't all hype. But fads come and go. For a pretty long time, a game gun with 30" barrels was a pretty tough sell. Now, with longer barrels being the current style, they're more sought-after.

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