doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com FFL transfer protocol

I'm trying to ship a gun to a potential buyer. None of the FFLs he is trying to go through will take a transfer unless its dealer to dealer. Of course the costs will increase to facilitate this.

In the past, the buyer would obtain a copy of an FFL from his dealer and I ship to the dealer. Has something changed in the ATF rules I am not aware of?

Thanks, RC

no new regs...sounds like some dealers may be concerned about receiving stolen goods directly...plus, if buyer does not pass background check, then receiving dealer has no where to legally return item...

That is what manager at LGS I have been dealing with for over 10 years told me. They want to dot the "i" and cross the "t". There is nothing wrong with that when it comes to interstate gun transactions.

Not legally required but most FFL holders operate this way. In the past I accepted transfers from individuals.....until some jackass sent me a fully loaded Henry lever action .22LR, even had one in the chamber! I now only do transfers for longtime clients, FFL to FFL.

If that's becoming the norm then cost to ship a $3K firearm with insurance is $70.00 m/l. Add the buyer's FFL fee and we're over $100.00, and if he decides to turn it around he's out of pocket at least $150.00. No wonder used guns in the $1500-$2500 range won't sell unless they're heavily discounted.

If the firearm is C&R eligible and the dealer refuses I will not deal with them on anything. This defeats the whole purpose of having a C&R and is IMO just an attempt by dealers to fatten their wallets. I have a C&R license and I've shipped and received numerous eligible guns to and from another C&R holder or an 01 FFL without any problems whatsoever over the years.
Jim

It's also known as making a living and being able to pay bills and put food on the table. Most places around here charge $50 per FFL transfer. I heard Bass Pro charges more because they do not want to bother with hassle or the extra paperwork. Not sure if that is true because I never ordered any guns through them.

James, I agree with you as I also have a C&R.

J�germeister, no that is called double dipping.

And then again, Fourth Armory in Marietta GA does free transfers both ways (you pay shipping on outgoing of course). They receive guns from individuals and are glad to email a copy of their FFL to dealers or individuals. They have a tip jar for underprivileged kids and if you offer to pay they point to the jar. I take in donuts or muffins for the ladies when I have a gun come in, and throw some money in the jar. Nicest folks in the world to deal with.

My LGS for years would take a seller's shipment without requiring an FFL shipment to him. His current policy is to now require shipment from an FFL holder. He went through an audit last year and there were no driver's license photocopies in a few transactions and flags were raised by the ATF. In some instances, he'd receive a gun with no driver's license photocopy in the package and despite repeated requests, none would be forthcoming. He hated to tell me about the new policy, but I understand. I wouldn't do it for $25 like he does.

Good for Fourth Armory. amen

Where do the regulations require a photo copy of the buyer's drivers license?

If everyone played nice and actually put a copy of their Valid state D/L or some other form of official State or Federal ID w/ Picture in with the firearm that you can read,,that would be a good step.
Trying to get the needed information after the delivery is near impossible, and there you sit as the FFL with a firearm in your lap w/no ID to show where it came from. The mailing lable doesn't cut it in an ATF compliance check.

You can't just send it back to the mailing address either as that requires an FFL at that end if out of state. ,,,and who's going to pay for that shipping. Mean time the customer of yours is standing there wanting 'his' gun but you can't transfer it to him.

You could enter the gun in your book as a 'repair' and then send it back to the same address,,that's legal to do IF it were true. But it isn't. Making false entrys in your bound book is a felony. Wanna take a chance? I'm sure no one ever though of that trick before...

If it does come with proper ID/DL, great,, log it in. Call your customer. He comes down, takes one look at the gun and says, 'Nah, I don't want it'.
Now what does the FFL do?
I can't send it back to the person who sent it as they are not an FFL,,same problem as above even if your customer has agreed to pay for the return trip/3 day insp/refusal.
So are you as the FFL supposed to find an FFL in the sellers state and secure a lic copy from them to send the gun to so it can be sent there and then transfered to the orig seller,,was that part of the deal,,is that on my free time?

That's why most FFL's simply say, accepted from another FFL only.

They are wrong in that the law does not require FFL to FFL, but I can see why they are shy

I have run into the same problem. I was able to find a local FFL who will work with me on shipments from Non FFLs as long as they are vintage long guns. I guess he feels less threatened by potential issues on old collector stuff versus black guns. That and he knows me after numerous transactions.

Problem is that you are all thinking of reasonable people doing sane and reasonable things in gun sales. Ask your dealer have they ever had a bad buyer or bad transfer? What if the transfer is declined by BATF? You can't make it into a straw man purchase. The stories they could tell you would make you think half their customers are morons. Then they get caught in the middle. How much crap would you put up with for 25-50 dollars? Not much I am betting.

Dealers just want a clear pathway to return a gun and get it off their books. They want a legit DL in case the gun later turns out to be stolen. The seller is on the hook for return shipping. My dealer logs the guns in, then has me fill out the form. He calls it in and only then do I get the gun. End of transaction one. If you want to return it that's transaction two. He does not charge me for the second but I rarely, almost never, send anything back and have bought a lot of guns. But how would you like to have some squirrel send every gun back. You have to repackage them. You have to setup shipping. You need to get a clean return FFL. So even if I don't like it I can see the need for FFL to FFL shipping.

All of this extra hassle and double-dipping by dealers doing transfers is absurd. You just need to find an FFL dealer who is willing to comply with the law as written, and quit giving business to those who are using lame excuses to pick your pockets.

This goes double for guys who insist on doing FFL transfers for known Antiques.

I simply make damn sure to let any seller know they must include a legible photocopy of their Drivers License when they ship the gun, or it will be returned at their expense. I don't know if there is an actual requirement to have the seller provide a copy of a Drivers License, but it does make sense to simply have a paper trail if a gun turns out to be stolen. The FFL has no more assurance that a gun shipped to him was not stolen than if it came across his counter face-to-face. Having an FFL at both ends of the transaction does nothing to assure that the gun isn't stolen either.

A couple years ago, a seller shipped a new Marlin 1895 .45-70 without including the copy of his license. The FFL simply held the gun until the seller faxed the copy of his Drivers License. I had to wait one extra day to take possession. Big deal. The FFL I use now usually charges me $25.00, but sometimes does it for less. Time to shop around if you are getting clipped for $40 or $50 at each end. Use your head people.

Please note in my above post I confined my remarks to someone what has a C&R FFL. I'd be somewhat leery of dealing interstate with someone without at least that just for the reasons Kutter pointed out.
IMO: There is no good reason for an 01 FFL to refuse to deal with a person with a C&R FFL on an eligible firearm.
Jim

Damn, and here I was almost prepared to believe gun buyers and sellers were a bit different from the public at large; just goes to show you how daft I am

Jeremy

It's nice when people do all the things they are supposed to do,,, send correct documentation, readable copys, licenses that are up to date, answer emails and the phone, followup when they say they will,,stuff like that.
But when you get stuck with a couple firearms as a FFL, with no documentation included with them, promises of 'getting it right out to you' never materialize, or worse yet emails or phone calls go unanswered, then you'll know why some FFLs only want to deal with another FFL.
Getting stuck in the middle of a few transactions for the precious $25 with a customer demanding 'his' gun at this end, and a ghost seller at the other end of which I have no ID for and no contact with isn't worth the effort anymore.
..and I can't just send the gun back to the return address label address COD,,I need an FFL to send it to. That's the regs.

I agree that the issue of ffl to ffl somehow offers some degree of protection against the gun being stolen is false. A few states do run the firearms ser# during their State equivalent of the NICS check. But that'd only show a gun as stolen at the time of sale to a non-FFL, like when you are transfering that gun to your customer.

If you've got a friendly, helpful FFL,,do your best to keep them!
Sounds like you have a good one..

In the aforementioned case where the seller neglected to send a copy of his Drivers License, it was absolutely no problem for the FFL I was using to do the transfer. The gun was bought and paid for by me. The FFL simply said he would have to hold the gun until the seller sent or faxed a copy of his Drivers License. It was entirely my problem and my responsibility to get the required documentation. This is also part of my reason for paying for my internet gun purchases with a U.S. Postal Money Order. If my purchase should end up being stolen or if the seller refuses to comply with the law, I'll let the Postal Inspector handle the mess when it becomes mail fraud. The only responsibility the FFL has is to complete a legal transfer. I expect no more and no less.

My current FFL guy is a gem, but not quite as good as the previous one who charged me nothing. Oh, when I smoked, he would charge me a cigarette or two because his wife didn't allow him to smoke.

And I ask the question again:
What is the risk to an 01 FFL who ships or received a qualified firearm from a C&R licensee? He's certainly NOT going to do it without a copy of the C&Rs license.
Jim

I am not out waving the flag to do transfers, but I do a few for a couple of dealers and individuals , they send a gun to me in the Houston. I charge $40.00

I accept guns from none ffl for transfer with no problem. I know of many dealers who only accept transfer from other ffl dealers. If that is how they wish to do business, that is their deal.

In 40 some years in business, I have only one issue. So I really think that is no big deal.

If for some reason I would get a gun in and the person did not past the background check, then its their problem with sending it back. I would hold it until they find an ffl who would accept return delivery. ( They still owe the $40.)

John Boyd
Quality Arms
Houston, TX

Oh my gosh John, your policy sounds... gasp!... reasonable and rational. That will never fly with the Chicken Little's who have been making mountains out of mole-hills here. Any FFL who was asked to go the extra mile to beg for required documentation or do return shipping could simply tell the customer that it's his problem, or charge more for the non-standard extra work. No need to screw everyone because of an extremely small number of miscues.

And Jim, the only thing an 01 FFL holder has to lose by shipping to or receiving a gun from a legitimate C&R License Holder is making more money on unnecessary transfer fees. I guess they have the right to be obstinate. And we have the right to shop around and not do business with unreasonable people.

Supposing the situation that a non-dealer ships a firearm to a buyer's FFL (dealer), and that, for whatever reason (failed to pass, chooses to return, never shows up!) the firearm is still the buyer's property, correct? After all it is legal for individuals to sell firearms directly to other individuals (has that law changed?) the difference is the legal requirement to "transfer" the firearm since it was shipped and not a face-to-face transaction. The FFL is not the seller, the firearm is never his property. Does the law prevent the FFL from returning the firearm to the seller/shipper directly?

I've had firearms returned from consignment arrangements without the need for an FFL transfer, after all the firearm is my property.

"I've had firearms returned from consignment arrangements without the need for an FFL transfer, after all the firearm is my property."

That is against the law. Once a gun goes to consignment the consignee MUST pass a back ground check to take possession of his own property. Crazy I know....but that is the law.

Maybe I am thinking of pre-background check days and I picked up the gun in person? It's been a while so I may be confused on that subject...

"...Supposing the situation that a non-dealer ships a firearm to a buyer's FFL (dealer), and that, for whatever reason (failed to pass, chooses to return, never shows up!) the firearm is still the buyer's property, correct?..."

The firearm once it reaches the FFL is considered 'transfered' to that FFL, no longer the sellers gun. It is logged in as 'Acquired From' (sellers name/address,ect) in the FFl's log book. The only way it can go anywhere ('Disposition')is to another FFL (w/copy of their FFL) or to another non-FFL (with 4473/NICS done).
Doesn't matter if it was sent/dropped off for consignment sale or sent for xfer to another customer or sold outright to the FFL.



If the firearm is refused, background check failed, or for whatever reason the gun doesn't get transfered to the local customer,,the FFL cannot simply box it back up and send it back to the original seller(non-FFL).
That's one of the problems you get in to. It has to go to another FFL in the sellers state for transfer (4473.NICS) back to the seller.
Again it seems out of wack, but that's the regs.


Selling to C&R license holders,,sure will any day of the week.
Either FTF or ship it to them. Same deal as an 01 or 02,

If the pertinent question is possession and not ownership, what if my out of State cousin wants to go bird hunting while he's visiting Georgia. I loan him my 311 and for some reason the BATF&E gets wind of it. Have I broken the law by transferring a covered firearm to an out of Stater without going through an FFL?...Geo

From BATF - " A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

If the firearm arrives at the FFL and is logged in I understand it is no longer the seller's firearm. If it is not picked up properly by the buyer I would think it is the FFL's firearm at some point.

So, if a loan of a firearm for sporting purposes is a permissible transfer of possession without transfer of ownership, why wouldn't delivery to an FFL which is conditioned upon physical transfer to the buyer be a lawful temporary use and the return of a refused gun to the owner be alright as well since there's been no transfer of ownership?...Geo

Similarly, delivery to an out of State gunsmith for repair without an FFL book transfer is alright under he Gun Control Act. Is this because the real issue is ownership rather than possession? Or, are these examples specific "carve-outs" in the regulations?

Because: (1) the sender would not have sent the firearm - across state lines - without the check having cleared. Ownership changes from seller to buyer when the check clears and the shipment leaves seller. If the terms of the sale say "3 day inspection" or such, the transfer of ownership would be contingent on the firearm passing inspection or the 3 days running out (as would the seller's right to keep the money). Once that contingency was fulfilled, ownership would change.
(2) the temporary loan of a firearm for sporting purposes does not implicate the firearm crossing state lines. (Conceivably, it could, but 99 44/100% of those temporary loans don't.)

Recall, the federal statute is written to govern sales between people from different states. Setting aside state laws that may impose their own requirements, the federal law requiring FFL transfers does not apply for sales between two people who are citizens of the same state. Private, unregistered, un-FFL'd sales are ok assuming you're willing to take the chance that your buyer (a) is not a prohibited person and (b) isn't making a straw purchase for Dopey D the repeat felon drug dealer or that your seller (c) didn't just lift the gun from someone's house or a LGS and (d) that it doesn't have bodies on it.)

Man or man. Some folks like to take something and make it complicated.

Here is a true story. As I said in a previous post, I only had this problem one time.

I received some guns from another dealer that was part of an inheritance for a fellow in Houston. He failed the background check. Went I told him I could give him the guns he was very unhappy. Of course he said they were his and he owned them because his uncle left him these guns. Since I never had anything like this happen, I called ATF and asked them what I needed to do.

They said two choices, return them to the original shipper where the guns came from or sell them for the guy and give him the money.

John Boyd