doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What is an antique firearm?

I purchased a damascus barreled gun through Gunbroker a while back. The seller insisted on having an FFL holder/dealer ship the gun to me. I hold an FFL. I entered the transaction in my record book, later to determine that the gun was made in 1891.

I called and spoke with a field agent at BATF and asked if I could sell the gun without going through the NICS process since it was Pre 1899 and should qualify as an antique. I thought sale of antiques did not require a backgound check.

The agent told me that the gun was not necessarily an antique as it could still fire modern ammunition. I reminded her that it had only black powder proofs. She seemed confused but unwilling to exempt the sale of this gun from the backgound check (NICS) requirement. I am at a loss whether to enter a sale in my record book or write it off as an antique.

Anyone have an experience with this type of sale?

Read paragraph (16) on page 203 of this PDF document from the ATF.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/pdf/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44.pdf

The agent you spoke with is wrong. She apparently got confused about the part referring to replicas of antique guns that are chambered for modern readily available ammunition.

I went through this several years ago when my old FFL Dealer retired and I needed a new guy to do my transfers. The new guy was somewhat confused by the law, so we called the nearest ATF Field Office for clarification. The Agent told us that pre-1899 guns are not even considered as firearms by the ATF, and should not even be entered in the Bound Ledger Book.

Of course, many dealers and sellers cannot and will not be convinced. And you will have little luck getting them to call the ATF for clarification. Please note that some states have requirements that go beyond ATF rules.

The whole thing is kind of silly. An 1898 Parker is OK without an FFL Transfer and Background Check, but the same gun one year newer is not. When the GCA of 1968 established the pre-1899 Antique rule, an Antique was any gun over 69 years old. The date hasn't changed, so now a gun must be 118 years old to qualify as Antique.

This is correct.
I have dealt with dozens of antique and "Curios and Relics " as a licensed collector. From the functional perspective I find the federal definition of a firearm amusing considering for example that I own a British air rifle that is more powerful than various 22s and is consequently treated as a firearm in other countries.
Jeremy

Thanks Keith. I still find the Code confusing:

(16) The term ��antique firearm�� means�
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with
a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or
similar type of ignition system) manufactured
in or before 1898;

It seems they are intending to include everything but centerfire breech loading guns.

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading
shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed
to use black powder, or a black powder
substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition.
For purposes of this subparagraph, the
term ��antique firearm�� shall not include any
weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or
receiver...

I wish they just left 16A as "any firearm manufactured in or before 1898.

Post Deleted

Note that Rimfire breech loading guns are in the same category as Centerfires as long as ammunition is readily available.
Where the problem arose was when they allowed reproductions to fall in the same category as antiques & not require a license. You cannot reproduce for instance reproduce an 1873 Winchester & chambered in .44-40 & sell it without due process. You can however sell any original 1873 in .44-40 (or other calibers) as long as it was made prior to 1899 without paperwork.
Where many get confused is they are reading the part which applies to repo's & applying it to antiques.

Of course some states have their own interpretation which supercedes the BATF definition. Keith is definitely right as far as the Feds go...but for those of us in NY there's a whole other standard.

NY doesnt even have a notion of antique "long guns." The "antique" portion of the law pertains exclusively to handguns. As such, any long guns the BATF would otherwise consider antiques are NOT defined as such in The Peoples Republic of New York.

Such is life in a state where 70% of the population lives in 9% of the land area. We have more WMA, public and park land than any state East of the Mississippi River...and yet our laws are dictated by urbanites who live in one small corner.

- Nudge

NY defines an antique the same way as ATF. Made 1898 or earlier. "Antiques" are exempt from the SAFE Act requirements.

I was told by the state police that according to their definition, they only consider "Firearms" as hand guns and assumt weapons. But that was in reference to the states requirements for being licensed through them as a dealer or gunsmith.

Bill,

Im not looking to start an argument, but i have had this conversation with 2 different people at NY gov just recently, and they both asserted that "antique" can only be applied to a gun that you cannot readily buy current production ammumitiin and shoot it. I neglected to put quotes, because i forget the exact language.

In fact, on BOTH occasions they pointed out that NY's law is stricter than the BATF's, and that this is widely not known.

All i can say is to repeat what I have been told. Half-wits in Albany...

If you can show written proof to the contrary, i will make several phone calls on Monday and i wont be polite about it. But on both occasions they sent me to a link where the exact legal text is written, and as I said, antique onlt pertained to handguns. Whixh they then explained.

I WANT you to be right here. My two experiences went another way.

- Nudge

Bill,

As.im thinking about.it now, i think last time i was so peeved that i called the NY BATF to get their impression and they flat.out told me that NY's law doesnt care about the 1899 thing.

And this was because my 2nd call to State people was related to a.pending transaction. I explained, 1897 or 1898 production sxs shotgun, and the first thing he asked me was, "Can it be loaded with modern store bought ammunition?" When i said yes, he said "the gun is not an antique according to NY law."

Again, not trying to argue. But this has been my experience.

Oh, and BTW, he said this pre-dates the SAFE Act.

- Nudge