doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What Does it Take For an SXS to Shoot Loose?

Larry,
If your 20 has 3" chambers, and the two pinwheels under PSF, what is left to "explain" about it's level of proof?
It was proofed at 17,637, instead of the 12,000 a Snipe would have been proofed at. It would NOT have left the proof house with 3" chambers, destined for the American market, any other way.
Period.
The problem I have with single triggers on SXS doubles, is, I don't like them there. However, I don't mind them on a superposed gun, particularly during the winter months. The Snipe has a nice, big, trigger guard that allows for a gloved finger to get into it. The Snipe has quite a bit of family history, and will never be hung on a wall.
I much prefer Italian guns to the Japanese guns I have handled. Snipes are usually pretty good buys, these days, but, as I said, I don't need more.

For different reasons, Mr.McIntosh came to the same conclusion I did, double triggers on his SXS guns, and singles on his O/Us.

I don't have to "sell" the Webley as a higher quality gun than a NID. It just is. I have plenty of 12 gauge guns of all stripes, so, I don't need the Webley, but, level of proof isn't something I spend a lot of time pondering, as a week or two of practice with the correct ammunition for the gun would yield better results than buying heavier loads for most people.
Anyone who believes they "need" a higher level of proof for a pheasant gun, likely just needs some practice.
The extra pound or so of weight the NID comes with, would look far better in your gunsafe, at the end of a ten hour day in the Dakotas, hunting pheasants, than it would look in in mine.
Give me the Webley, thank you very much.


Best,
Ted

LGS had later production Webley 700 that was marked 2&3/4" on barrel flats. The Birmingham mass-produced SxS from 700 series is a benchmark for modern knockabout SxS game gun. It isn't going to be bested in quality and handling by anything field grade in same gauge made in USA. It takes very, very good gun to match or beat lowly Webley & Scott. One example would be "pipe-actioned" Manufrance Ideal once made in France.

Ted--Indeed, a gun with 3" chambers would have a magnum/superior proof. What you seem to be overlooking is the fact that a gun DOES NOT HAVE TO BE 3" IN ORDER TO HAVE A MAGNUM/SUPERIOR PROOF. That's because--starting with the Super X loads and going forward--we had much heavier and faster 2 3/4" loads in this country than they did in Europe. The reason the NID was subjected to heavier proof than a Webley is because it evolved simultaneously with the Super-X loads. Which were heavier and faster than what was available on the other side of the pond--especially as far back as the mid-20's, when the NID's first appeared. Whether one thinks one NEEDS those loads for pheasants is immaterial. The fact is, they pretty much became the standard for both pheasant and duck hunters, and likely outsold any other 12ga hunting loads. So if you wish, you could go with the Super Pigeon load, which although also 1 1/4 oz was about 100 fps slower. But then, just as now, American ammo makers pushed the heavier and faster stuff . . . because, obviously, that's the best stuff.

And again, no doubt the Webley is a better gun . . . as reflected by the fact that it costs 3X as much. But it's not a stronger gun. Whether you think the NID needs to be that strong or I do is immaterial. It's a fact. Not even an alternative one.

Larry,
ALL Darnes built post 1964 came with the highest level of proof, regardless of chamber length. I've seen that movie, Larry. But, a 3" chamber Italian gun is ALWAYS going to have superior proof. Period.
No, I'm not over looking anything. However, superior proof doesn't seem to have been a feature of the old Snipe guns, likely a decision made by the importer. I would have seen a few by now, if they had been, I would imagine.
What anyone is pushing as far as ammunition goes is irrelevant to most guys with doubles, in my experience. The heavier and faster stuff the best?
I guess I missed that memo. I have a pump or two I could feed the 3" stuff to, were I to need to do that. I don't.
The Webley is as strong as it needs to be, Larry. Neither of us, in the years we have left to hunt, would be able to hurt it, even with a 1 1/4oz Pheasants Forever load chambered on a -5 degree day every now and then. With a spreader loaded in the full choke barrel, it could pass for a grouse gun, not the highest evolution of that class of gun, perhaps, but, one hell of a lot closer than the NID you sold.
The Webley is a typical, late 20th century English boxlock, built for the rest of us. The NID was a late 20th century American boxlock, built for the home market. I'm not sure how it would have faired had it been exported to England, or, Europe, but, I wouldn't have tried that on my dime.
The Webley is a higher quality gun, in any way you want to compare them, finish, engraving, ejector mechanism, wood, whatever, which, is kind of what I stated 4-5 pages ago, or so. You keep prattling about how the NID can handle those big, hot, loads, which, you also noted, you don't use so much anymore. True, the Webley will eat up more of your pension money, but, it will sell for more, should you decide to do that.
There is no alternative to those facts.

Best,
Ted

Well Ted . . . thanks for remembering the Darnes and higher levels of proof. I've also seen other French guns with double and triple proof (but not many with the latter). And of course a 3" gun from any CIP country is always going to have superior proof. But so are some 2 3/4" guns from CIP countries. Like Darnes.

Ted, take a look at the history of American doubles back in the 20's. The NID replaces the Flues; the Super Fox makes its appearance, as does the LC Smith Long Range Wildfowl. Those were all changes made because of what was happening with the ammo makers.

I'm mostly in agreement with you on what's needed to kill a pheasant. But Ted, we're in a minority. Look at what the ammo makers are promoting today as "premium" pheasant loads. Not stuff for which the Webley was built. Might it handle a few of them? Sure. And although I'm not particularly recoil sensitive, I wouldn't want to put very many through it. Way too light for 1 1/4 oz of shot at 1500 fps. That's a whole bunch more recoil than the same load @ 1330 fps.

You keep trying to compare the NID and the Webley. Doesn't work for a very simple reason: In this country, our doublegun makers never turned out 12ga guns built on "game gun" principles. They were all heavier than Brit 12ga game guns. But never fear . . . they didn't ignore the people who figured they could kill a pheasant (or a duck) with something less than a heavy 12ga load. Brit game guns compare nicely, in terms of weight and of the loads for which they were designed, to American 16's. Of course we didn't make as many 16's as we did 12's . . . mainly because the 12 is a more versatile gun. But more than enough of them were made to satisfy the needs of the guy who wanted a lighter pheasant/duck gun, and one that would also work for grouse and woodcock.

A NID 12ga, IMO, is a fine choice for someone who wants an American classic for trap and sporting clays. Find one with 30" barrels, and most SC shooters would prefer it to the Webley, simply based on the additional weight. And if you don't mind the weight--and a lot of people don't--it's fine for pheasants too.

Horses for courses, as they say. And the Webley was designed for different courses than a NID 12ga . . . but pretty much the same courses as a 16ga NID. More expensive than a 12, but a fine gun for general upland use . . . and at most, if we're talking Field Grade, only half the price of a Webley.

You gents are going to hurst yourselves with them "Golden Pheasants" and "Prairie Storm" loads. The English versions are called Tall Pheasant or Supreme Pheasant depending on who loads them. The 16ga with 1oz at about 1200fps it the way to go. While I had little good to say about the 16 in the past interestingly that is the double gauge gun actually I bought.

The Pheasants Forever Federal load I have been using for about three seasons is 1 1/4 oz at 1300fps, and it is TOO much.

Unless, it is below zero degrees. Then, it is just right.

I have fed them to a pimple bulged Darne, (out of proof, but, about .090 wall where the mishap occured, before my time with the gun) the Silver Snipe, and, several pumps and autos, not so much as a second though on the last two classes of guns, and not much more on the first two.

I'm sure 1500fps ammunition exists out there, somewhere, for some reason.

But, I don't buy any.

I have an old box of Winchester 2 3/4" high brass 5s that are 1 1/4oz and 1200fps, and, I honestly would be content with them the rest of my life, but, I'm down to about 6 rounds, and I would guess they are from about 1971.

Actual hunting ammunition lasts a long time for me.


Best,
Ted

Back when we had a lot of pheasants in Iowa and I was spending a lot of time chasing them, I'm positive that I never fired a flat at ringnecks over the course of the season. But I went past half a flat several times. And that's just pheasant hunting . . . although lighter loads are appropriate for prairie grouse, ruffs, woodcock and quail.

Lighter loads are very often appropriate for pheasants, too, Larry. The oz and a quarter loads were pretty much a change in the weather thing for me.
Never shot a box of them in a season. Shot a lot of the Federal 1 1/8 oz 6s and 7 1/2s game loads when the skys were blue and the temps pleasant.
I shot A LOT of pheasants with a 20 gauge Darne loaded with 1 oz of 6s, and usually used the same damn load for grouse.
I think they were high brass Federals, but, I can't be sure from here, some 30 seasons later. I do wish I'd never sold that gun.


Best,
Ted

You have some regrets like that too, Ted?

Lighter loads can indeed be appropriate for pheasants. It's just that they're not very popular. The "premium" stuff has gotten either faster or heavier, or both. We're swimming against the tide. I'm sure that I've shot more pheasants with a 16 than I ever will with a 12, and in many cases my 12's were Brit guns and my heavy load (only in the L barrel) was a 1 1/8 oz reload at about 7,000 psi and mid-1100 range velocity. But I've been unable to convince the masses that anything less than 1 1/4 oz makes sense. I'm pretty sure McIntosh felt the same way. But the best he could do when it came to a blanket recommendation for a pheasant load--on which subject both Brister and Hill agreed with him--was the old 1 1/4 oz Super Pigeon load. 100 fps slower than the Super X, but still 1 1/4 oz shot. A very good load, but hard to find in top quality factory shells.