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I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about not seeing English guns at gun shows-I pointed out I have seen a lot more broken, American project guns at gun shows, than broken English project guns at shows.
The English guns are there all right-they just function perfectly and are having full price asked for them. It is often evident that they have been used quite hard as well, and the owners still stand pretty firm on price. I also pointed out it was anecdotal, just what I have seen, in my corner of the world.

Best,
Ted

Nudge, agreed on the tariffs subject. Still disagree on the autos. Not that you are wrong about post war English cars (My father was an Austin, Triumph, MG, Jag dealer in the 50's) but that we were talking about a different era with the guns.....pre war, and thought we should be doing the same to make the car analogy useful. Pre war Rolls, Bentleys, Bugattis, Delage, Delahayes, Talbot Lago etc were as advanced, well made and mechanically sound as anything America made. For sure.

American and European were all just as likely to leave you on the side of the road.

Some time ago i was looking for blueprints or plans for a british falling block rifle action. On some of the other websites this attitude came up about the american actions being superior because they were designed for working men who got their hands dirty, where as the british actions were meant for use by people who never done a days work in their lifes.
My response is "so what". Its an attitude i used to hear from a marxist/communist chap who used to come to my workplace looking for us to join the trade union. Yes he did call eveyone "comrade".

Bonny,

WOW. I guess we all read what we want to read...not necessarily what is written.

Never, not once, in any comment that I made, did I suggest that American anything is necessarily superior to anything. My point in taking on the Euro-phile perspective was simply to state that the very best of what America made in the golden age of shotguns was every bit the equal of the very best of what was made 'over there.' Did we make as many? No. But I don't think that matters.

Did the "average" quality of things measure? I dunno...I wasn't getting into that. Low and average quality ANYTHING that is foreign usually doesn't make it to ANY country's shores, precisely because of the cost + tariffs. (Or at least...prior to NAFTA and China entering the WTO, this was the case. Thank you Bill Clinton.)

British falling block rifles might be every bit the equal to American designs. And I'm not asserting that the working class is inherently "noble" -- I detest such generalizations. The conversation was simply about the aesthetic which prompted the English best gun design. Good for them if their hands never got dirty!

Anything else you, or anyone else want to "think" you read in my comments...are nothing more than a construct of your own willful misinterpretation. Or lack of reading comprehension.


- Nudge

I believe one reason for this to be that the English had a far different perspective on the maintenance of doubles than did Americans. They would return their guns to the maker on a regular basis for maintenance and refurbishing. Americans, however, would not return guns to the maker unless it was to be modified or repaired ...........and only then when they felt they could not do the work themselves. Were the English "smarter"? Not necessarily. More a difference in the national spirit, I'd say. Americans have always been fiercely independent and in possession of a strong "I can do this" ethic. Why else would we(they) have believed we(they) could wage war on the greatest military power in the world and win independence? It has never fully changed, though much of today's society has forgotten it. I have a friend who sends his K80 to have it gone through completely each winter, after only about 3000-4000 rounds a year. His brother in law thinks he is a fool. Those are the two differing attitudes I am talking about.

The result? Rough used American guns that were attempted to be fixed by their owners who, because of independent spirits or, difficulty and cost involved in getting it back to the maker, didn't return them to the maker. They are bound to be in worse condition after a life like that. Would an English gun of the same quality have fared any better with that type of treatment? I think not. So, the results of both "lifestyles" shows up at the gun shows today. I think it is no accident that the finer examples of surviving American guns are the higher grades which were owned by men of means, who were more financially able to pamper them and have them properly maintained.

JMO, SRH

Sorry nudge, but its an attitude that i have come across on a few American based forums, especially ones dealing mainly with older and classic firearms. I accept It was my misreading and not the point you were making.

Sounds like a pretty immature, mixed in with a little bit of jealousy, opinion. President Teddy Roosevelt loved his Winchester but when he ran into all those big, gut smashing pachyderms in Africa he went with his Holland & Holland.

I guess you missed it, Ted. I pointed out that American 12's are multi-purpose guns, for everything from upland to waterfowl (especially back when they were made, when we could shoot lead) to turkeys. Brit 12's are not. They're more specific tools: Either wildfowl guns or upland guns.

And, at 3x the price, the W&S SHOULD be a better gun than a NID. And it is . . . IF you feed it the proper ammo. I've owned several 700's (as well as several NID's), and the 700 is a fine gun . . . for loads of relatively moderate velocity up to 1 1/8 oz shot, if you're hunting and not shooting a lot of them. (See Mr. Greener's Rule of 96.) I've shot multiple rounds of trap with those same 1 1/8 oz loads in a NID, and I could shoot them all day. And I could move up to heavier and faster 1 1/4 oz loads, which would not be a wise choice in the 700. It's not built for those.

What it comes down to is that the 700 is a better gun . . .for you and for me, if we're looking for a pheasant gun and if we don't see the need to shoot heavy loads. See what most American pheasant hunters choose for loads. Most would not be happy with a 700 if they were to touch off a couple Super-X's. Most American pheasant hunters carry guns that are heavier than they really need and shoot loads that are faster and heavier than they really need . . . but Ted, you and I are in a minority on that score. And even though I've written a book and a ton of articles on pheasant hunting, I don't think I've swung all that many people to our way of thinking. I feel lucky when I can convince them that they'll hardly ever need more than the old "Super Pigeon" load: 3 1/4 DE, 1 1/4 oz shot, 1220 fps. And in the case of that particular load, I can invoke names of true shotgun gods: McIntosh, Brister, Hill. And I'm still swimming against the tide.

Larry,
If it was really cold, I might just load up a 1 1/4 oz #5 load in that Webley. It shouldn't be a big problem, as performance goes down on all loads around zero, and the thing weighs 6 lbs, 10 ozs. Most of my 12s are lighter than that.
One or two a year, in cold weather, wouldn't hurt it. Been doing it for years with my Silver Snipe, a lighter gun.
I'd rather hunt with the 700 than a NID. While it's worth more, it isn't really an expensive gun.
But, it is much nicer than any NID.

Best,
Ted

Excellent points, Stan. Owners of Brit guns in this country are also more likely to take care of what they bought because they are also more likely to properly maintain something that cost 3X (or more) the price of a basic American classic 12ga field gun. And since the growth in popularity of British shotguns on this side of the pond, we writers have given good publicity to those gunsmiths who know what they're doing when they get their hands on a Brit gun. And they're more likely to be "specialists" rather than generalists. Your average American gunsmith is likely to deal with at least as many rifles and handguns as he does shotguns . . . and, relatively speaking, darned few side by sides compared to OU's, autos, and pumps. They might admire your Fox or Elsie, but it might also be the 2nd one they've worked on in the last 5 years. But if you only pay a few hundred $ for a double, how likely are you to track down one of the doublegun specialists, who probably doesn't live anywhere near you and may very well tell you you're going to get your gun back in 6 months minimum? While the local guy says he can fix it in a week or two for a lot less money. And maybe he can, and maybe it will be fixed right. Or maybe not.

I know a couple gunsmiths who, between them, might have a dozen British "project" guns. You won't see them for sale as is. You'll see them for sale after the work has been done. And probably for a fair price . . . although that price is likely to be a good bit more than an American classic field grade 12ga.