March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
8 members (Jimmy W, ksauers1, mel5141, fallschirmjaeger, 2 invisible), 809 guests, and 5 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,376
Posts544,025
Members14,391
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Agree on the Robust, canvasback: More or less the Stevens of France, but a much better gun.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Larry,
A run of the mill English A & D boxlock is a better gun than just about any American double.
Agree with James that the same is true of a Robust, or a Costo.
Or, an R10.
Also agree that without those tarrifs, the American trade in guns would have went to bicycles, car parts, typewriters, and chain saws, before it did.
And the world would have been better for it.

Best,
Ted

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,076
Likes: 442
GLS Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,076
Likes: 442
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Agree on the Robust, canvasback: More or less the Stevens of France, but a much better gun.


It's been years ago on another thread that some disagreed with the Stevens comparison of the Robust. The observation was that the Robust was the M21 of France. wink Gil

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Klunk, RIP, always considered the Stevens a better gun than the model 21.

Best,
Ted

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Larry,
A run of the mill English A & D boxlock is a better gun than just about any American double.
Agree with James that the same is true of a Robust, or a Costo.
Or, an R10.
Also agree that without those tarrifs, the American trade in guns would have went to bicycles, car parts, typewriters, and chain saws, before it did.
And the world would have been better for it.

Best,
Ted


Sorry, Ted. Having owned plenty of both, can't agree with that. American doubles, in general, were built more like tools designed for hard use. Long after we'd converted to stout 2 3/4" loads in our doubles on this side of the pond, the Brits stuck with their 2 1/2" standard. If they'd tried to do what we did, the majority of their doubles would have been built like their waterfowl guns . . . but they weren't. What do you suppose would have happened to Brit doubles--or, for that matter, Robusts--if they'd been submitted to the torture test (a whole bunch of proof loads) that John Olin fed the Model 21 (and all the other classic American doubles of that period)? Our doubles, in general, were overbuilt. Theirs, by our standards, were underbuilt. Worked with their loads, but try punching the chambers on a 2 1/2" Brit 12 and then feeding it Super-X loads for the next few decades. Shouldn't have been done to short-chambered American 12's, but it has been . . . and most of them handled the overload because they were overbuilt.

In terms of handling qualities in the field, I'll take your average Brit 12 bore game gun over just about any American classic 12. But if I'm going to shoot 3 3/4 DE, 1 1/4 oz loads as a steady diet--or maybe even hotter stuff--I'll take the American gun. The fact that so many of them are still out there and still shooting reliably, when the last of them went out of production shortly after WWII, shows there's nothing really wrong with the basic designs.

Not to mention the fact that you can pick up an American classic for less money than a basic Brit A&D in similar condition. I just sold a nice, solid Ithaca NID 12ga for $700. I can't imagine being able to buy a basic Brit 12 in similar condition for that kind of money. Spanish version of the A&D from Uggie, yes . . . but they're also more in the direction of being overbuilt for heavier, modern loads.

Last edited by L. Brown; 02/11/17 09:45 AM.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Larry,
The 1 1/4 oz load wasn't needed in England, and, truth be told, wasn't needed the great majority of the time, here, either.
I use them when it gets cold, temps around zero start affecting shotshell performance. I go right back to 1 1/8th oz if it warms up a bit. I never give it much thought, but, the Federal Pheasants Forever load is likely outside of what my Silver Snipe is proofed for.

Not my R10, however.

Using the English gun, as intended, would cover 90% of what goes on here in the states. Maybe 95%.
All Olin's test really proved to me was that ALL the guns he tested were more than strong enough for what they were intended for. I'd also be curious to see what would happen if a variety of American designs had visited the French proof house back in the day, and been submitted for triple proof. Would they hold together?
Hard to say.
Seems like it is a lot easier to find an American "project" gun at a show, than anything English. Anecdotal, for sure, but, I wish I had a buck for every broken Yank double I'd ever seen at a show in my life.
While it won't likely be shooting any longer than your NID that you sold, I'd much rather have that 30" Webley 12 that is over on the for sale section. Most people would, I'm thinking, which explains the price difference.
A gun can be a tool and be beautiful, as well, as that gun so well illustrates.


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=471583#Post471583

Best,
Ted

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
I'll just stick to my Lefevers, they've been going strong for more than 100 years, have better lines in my eye, & "If" it ever does wear off face the hinge can be tightened with the twist of a screwdriver. You can have all of my share of them W&S 700's.


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Originally Posted By: 2-piper
I'll just stick to my Lefevers, they've been going strong for more than 100 years, have better lines in my eye, & "If" it ever does wear off face the hinge can be tightened with the twist of a screwdriver. You can have all of my share of them W&S 700's.


How many NIDs do you have?

The Lefevers are generally good looking guns. I've seen bunches with 3", or more, of drop, however.

That doesn't work out so well for me.


Best,
Ted

Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 287
Likes: 7
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 287
Likes: 7
Comparing an extra light British gun for 2 1/2 inch cartridges to heavier American working guns is unreasonable. Compare British waterfowling guns to equivalent weight American guns. You will then find their superior durability.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Originally Posted By: Saskbooknut
Comparing an extra light British gun for 2 1/2 inch cartridges to heavier American working guns is unreasonable.


It is. But, that said, I'm pretty certain the listed 700 is 2 3/4" proofed.

Still superior, even to Larry's NID, which, isn't
Larry's anymore.

Best,
Ted

Page 5 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.070s Queries: 36 (0.051s) Memory: 0.8611 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 15:11:12 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS