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Sidelock
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fuhrmann,
If you have the rifle and chambercast "in hand", you are in a better position to know the dimensions, than I. If you believe it is a 450 base cartridge, I suggest you obtain an empty 450-400/ 3" case( currently available from Hornady, I believe), and try it in the chamber. If the caliber of the rifle is as large as described, this case should have enough taper and a small enough neck to fit into your chamber, if it is for a 450 base cartridge. If it doesn't chamber, I suggest you "smoke" the case with a candle, lighter, or magic marker, and find where the interference is. If the interference is at the base, it is not a 450 base chamber, if it is in the neck/shoulder area; either size or cut off the case, and try again. If it fits, this time, then you have a source of cases( or if you find it more economical, you might try modifying Starline 50-110 Win. cases). If it still doesn't chamber, you should relook MB cases.
Mike

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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Mike
I am in the same position as you, no hands on the rifle, but interested and trying to be helpful.
What I have is a small collection of old hunting cartridges, so I can take measurements for reference .
Having rifle, reference cartridges and information all in one place would make things easier.


Raimey
I recently got some reprints of period (say 1900 to 1920) case catalogs: Utendörffer, Egestorff, Roth, DWM.
Besides the already discussed suspects (.450 Express or MB/Mauser base) I see no further hot candidates.
Without more and exact chamber dimensions my knowledge ends here.

My next idea to understand what the original chambering was would be to contact the Vienna proofhouse.

Alternatively, just to make the rifle shoot again with proper ammunition (you do not need to know the original cartridge designation for this) , to obtain exact bore and chamber dimensions and proceed as Mike proposed above.

Although .45-70 cartridges can be chambered, in my eyes this is not a .45-70 rifle.
Potentially dangerous with modern hot loads (+P or whatever they are called).
.45-70 cases will be signifantly undersize at the case head, I think you will see some "swelling" of the fired case below the rim - not as much as possible, but I assume this is luckily a modern case with thick walls at the case head.
Using old-type balloon head .45-70 cases possibly might result in split case heads.

That the rifle will not "regulate" properly with .45-70 cartridges is no surprise.
This depends on bullet weight, powder load etc., and one must try to find out these things.

fuhrmann

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fuhrmann,
When I make 11.15x51R cases from 45-70, or 11.15x60R from 45-90, they do, indeed, expand. In these cases, there is no problem. I turn the rims to .595", instead of .585", so the rim centers the case in the chamber and insures even expansion. This is after reforming the rim to MB type. I had head separations with CIL factory cases that turned out to be balloon head. I also saw 43 Spanish factory case (UMC ca 1912) blow the head out. They turned out to be folded head cases, fired with .080" excess headspace( one barrel thread). Extreme care must be taken with old cases, and the shoulder must mot be set back in hand loading. Dies should be set to just "kiss" the shoulder, instead of the shellholder hitting the die. You are absolutely right to be concerned about this. You are also right that the name of the cartridge doesn't matter if you can make cases and bullets that fit. The Mallmart is not going to have any, anyway.
Mike

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Sidelock
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Sidelock

Joined: Mar 2010
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Mike
that's interesting, I had exactly the same happening with a 11,2x51R Kropatschek-Heissig (that is what my late father determined it to be, I know there are several variations possible, but definitely it is of MB type). With both vintage Utendörffer and also CIL/Dominion cases and a slight headspace (this due to reforming from 11.15x60R with suboptimal sizing dies) there were head separations or sometimes a split head, all this with black powder.
No problems with reformed BELL basic cases - quite "vintage" too nowadays..
Anyway I believe that in the old days shooters must have been very careful to use cases of exact base diameter and shape.
Modern brass is much more "forgiving".
fuhrmann

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To Oshans:
A. To the best of my understanding this case did not see the
bench of a Kalezky guncase maker nor did it see the
Kalezky shop featuring in attached photo.
http://www.jpgbox.com/page/51374
- Photo courtesy police headquarter -
(See my neighbouring thread "Kalezky-ana et al."
on genuine Kalezky guncase labels and features)
B. Whatever the cartridge-guru-universe of this forum
finds out/clarifies on the real cartridge of this
rifle PLEASE LET IT REPROOF - repeat LET IT REPROOF -
and dont pull the trigger on it.
C. If you think this is not cool then I recommend
you to visit a notary and dictate to him your last
will and have it properly signed.
Sincerely
Felix Kassandra

Last edited by felix; 01/19/17 07:11 AM.
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Sidelock
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fuhrmann,
Modern brass will also give problems, mainly rimmed and belted cases. Often the chambers are reamed too long, since the headspace is usually measured from the front of the rim or belt. When the shoulder in the chamber is too far forward, the headspace can still be correct. This sets up a condition where the shoulder is set back at every sizing and then blown forward at the next firing. This will cause head separations. The same thing can happen if the sizing die/shell holder combination causes the neck to be set back. Older rimmed cartridges such as 303 British, 30-30, etc are known for short case life. Even more modern wildcats such as 357 Herrett require precise fitting of fired cases to the chamber. I set dies for even rimless cartridges to "kiss" the shoulder, even though they don't give as many problems. I think in the old days, there wasn't as much handloading, especially in Europe( as always you will find exceptions). Many of those that did handload, such as 8.15x46R shooters,did so in in-resized cases, which fit the chamber. The loading tools we are accustomed to are a relatively modern thing.
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 01/19/17 04:16 PM.
Gunwolf #501464 01/13/18 04:34 PM
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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Hello,

The Label has been re-created by a collector. He also made one for a Wilhelm Foerster. I emailed him years ago and asked him where he found it. He was very upfront with how he made it and there is no intent to deceive as both the printed label and case are new.

Ric Hill


Rick Hill
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