doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Francotte question

How does one differentiate a VL&D Model 14E from an 18E? Also, is there a way to determine date of production on one of these guns? I'm guessing 1930s from VL&D history, but is there more that can be determined?









A light little 20 that some clod-fisted nimrod has buggered almost every screw on. The ejectors are also fairly wanky. Still.....the price is right.

Bob Beach is the man to contact for that info.

Not 1930's. VL&D had been absorbed by Abercrombie & Fitch by that time. Also, a 30's gun would carry a Belgian date code. That gun does not. 1924 or later, the gun would have gauge and chamber length in MM--20-65 in the case of that gun--marked on the flats. Yours, lacking that mark and the date code, is pre-1922. As noted above, Bob Beach at Griffin & Howe can almost certainly provide you with information. G&H has the old VL&D/Abercrombie records.

Nice gun. Good luck!

I seem to recall that at some point in time the address for VL&D changed from New York to Chicago. I do not have this info at hand, can anyone confirm or refute this & give the date if it is indeed true.

Miller, I believe the Chicago firm of which you speak was VL&A: Von Lengerke & Antoine.

I have a couple of Francottes. I compared my guns to those shown on Guns International. There were several 14E's (more common) and I may have seen the 18E on either Gunbroker or on GI, too. I saved a couple advertisements with photos if you want me to send them to you.

What did you pay for the 20 bore?

The differences in the two models show on the different checkered side panels (on both models) and also on the balls or fences. The rest of the engraving varies on individual guns, it appears. There is not a great differnce between the two models; slight cosmetics, and little difference in price...although prices on these can range from $1400 (pretty low) to $3000.

Larry- the 18E I have is both stamped 12-65 and 2-5/8 for chambers. The original chambers on my two Francotte 12's measured 2-5/8". One was made in 1926, the other 1891. The older gun has no chamber marking but is 2-5/8".

I used to live in Chicago area. I remember going to the very nice Ambercrombie and Fitch store there back in the 60's. I was kind of intimidated by the expensive outfits there. The company was founded in 1892 and probably had its first store in NYC. They bought out VL&D in 1928. The original Ambercrombie business went bankrupt in about 1976.

Larry;
I believe you are right on the VL&A instead of VL&D. Was the Von Lengerke part of it the same outfit just with a different partner or was there no connection between the two firms.

Gentlemen, thank you! Pre-1922 eh? It seems like the balls are more carved on the 18s I've seen on-line. It's definitely not plain (although the wood is). I shot it yesterday to make sure the tubes weren't as abused as the rest of it. Everything seems to regulate just fine and the triggers and safety were OK. It's been back-bored so much that there is no distinctive end to the chambers. Accordingly, I shot both 2 1/2 & 2 3/4-inch stuff (even the cheap Cabela's Herters loads) with no discernible difference noted. This gun is really light so both belt you a bit. Is this thing worth a K? It should make a great travel & kid gun (w/light loads).

Also, are those dovetail lumps? I would have thought with Siemens tubes it would be chopper lump. No matter though, too nice of a gun to pass up.