doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Open center in crimp.

The center of my crimps are open. A little hole that leaks shot.
How do I fix ?
Lower the pre crimp station?
Shorten load components ?

If you are using a MEC machine you need to lower your cam on the final crimp down. If out of adjustment you need to lower crimp starter. If not clear just go to MEC and watch their video. Jon

I had that problem with heat sealed AA's and solved it by use of a overshot card, I have also used a myler overshot card for the same purpose.

Those center holes are for "Scouts".

I've been sitting here the last few days loading flats of Remington 20-gauge Gun Club hulls, while I watch the various "also played football" bowls!! I'm finding a lot of variation in the length of these Gun Club hulls, from a full 2 3/4 inch, which crimp beautifully, to some 3/32" or a bit more short which leave a hole too large for #9s. I can feel when they hit the crimp starter station whether they go in the box or the line-up for a drop of candle wax.

I mostly reload 12 ga. Gun Clubs and also have noticed they vary in length, but most hulls do. What I found out that works best is to set the crimp station a little deeper so that the final crimp on the longer hulls will leave a swirl crimp and the shorter ones will look even.

I also load AA's in the HS hull and if I only reload a few boxes with different shot using all the same components, I will just melt some wax over the hole. The AA's are shorter than the Gun Clubs.

Yes there is a variation in factory hull length. I have 2-3/4" Fiocchis which measure 2-5/8"; lots of them. 16 gauge.

He he he, Yes Researcher, candle wax and cheerios are our friends

Those are strange looking hulls, Marks 21, as in rather 'different'. What are they? It appears to be a crimp section from another hull inserted in them. The one depicted top left looks like it should have gone in the trash bin at an earlier time and not been reloaded again.

You have good answers already for MECs, but if using other equipment you will want to insure that the crimp starter folds the crimp area to something smaller than a #2 pencil; then it is a matter of the crimp station coming down far enough to close the crimp and also have a correct crimp depth [roughly .050" or 1.25mm]. Your 'stack height' can and will also affect the final crimp attained w/any given setting as you noted asking about your components.

On finding hulls to be of different lengths as some posters mentioned above, they are, but there is also a second thing taking place that I've never seen anyone discuss and that is their lengthening from repeated firings. I find that the Remington hulls' mouths also tend to close up more after repeated firings. I'm speaking of a fired hull's mouth being less open. I find that an aggravation & mark those hulls as 'throw-aways' when noticed.

A drop of candle wax as previously noted will solve the leaky shot issue on the hulls depicted.

The above adjustments usually work.

I reload mostly Remingtons, some STS but mostly Gun Clubs, in both 12 and 20. Once adjustments are made, I don't have any problem with holes in the center. And I can't remember the last time I had to tinker with either the cam or crimp depth settings. That's one reason I like reloading Gun Clubs!

Thanks guys I assume that will be spot on for my MEC.
As far as the hulls, you know your run of the mill 2 oz skeet loads:

Mark21,
In your "run of the mill 2 oz skeet loads" are you using black or nitro powder?

Where did you find Win Industrial shells ? I've never seen a color combination of yellow/red/clear. Your first pic shows shells that look like they've been reloaded before, your second pic shows a shell with a fired primer yet the mouth of the shell looks unfired or new. Anyways, my load stack height is .300 from the top of the shell. With that I get a .060 crimp depth - factory for 12ga is .055. Once you get the proper, or close to proper crimp depth, with a single stage Mec you can do this
When adjusting the crimp station, the CAM is the LAST thing you adjust. Adjust the crimp starter first, then adjust the seating stem to get the proper depth. When you are getting a correct fold of the crimp petals, and the correct depth set, THEN adjust the cam to eliminate the flare. NOTE The cam adjustment should be set at least 2/3 of the way up, while the other adjustments are being made. Then, and only then, lower the cam enough to eliminate the flare.



The roller will not touch the cam (or at least not have any force put on it by the cam) at the very bottom of the stroke. BUT, more cam means the cam will touch the roller and apply force to it longer (further down) in the stroke. The cam has a fairly sharp shoulder or lobe on it. When you start down with the press the roller rolls on the cam (because this part of the cam is circular) and the outer (plastic) part of the die is pushed down by the cam and roller. Until you get around 1/2-3/4 of the way down, everything I have said so far remains true regardless of where the cam is set. However, the cam is rotating as you come down. Eventually the cam rotates to the point when the roller goes past the shoulder on the cam. Past this point the cam is no longer circular. As you come on down the cam puts less and less pressure on the roller. But, the center punch will come on down because it is fastened solidly to the top of the press. If the roller gets past the shoulder of the cam too early in the stroke you will end up with the punch coming on down on the center of the crimp and this tending to squeeze the top of the shell outward. But the plastic part of the die is not coming on down, which means it cannot prevent the top of the shell from flaring outward. It takes a lot of fine tuning to get this just right. There is a reason why Mec adds the final taper die to the Grabber and 9000. Having a separate die that is used strictly to get some taper makes things a lot simpler.


Most people do NOT have straight in their minds what the CAM actually does. There are all kinds of convoluted beliefs as to what it actually does.

Adding more cam, (Lowering it at the adjustment slot), causes the crimp die to lower slightly at the near bottom of the stroke. The die has a taper at the top of the die, that when pushed lower, will in fact push the flare at the end of the hull inward, closing the hole in the center tighter, and usually will eliminate the flare and in fact may leave the end of the hull slightly rounded.

SO, in most cases, a properly adjusted CAM will reduce or eliminate the flare on the end of the hull, and probably leave it slightly rounded.
With a progressive press the very last crimp station can be carefully adjusted down so you get a slight round [ making it easier when using autos ] on the top of the shell. Either one will also close the crimp a little. I also reload just Remington hulls and never had a problem with crimps.
I don't think you meant 2oz skeet loads - 2oz wouldn't fit in a 2 3/4" shell unless you were using fiber wads and skeet loads are 1 1/8oz max.

These are 2oz -- 8 ga. Nitro loads.

I smiled when I saw the hulls. I have a similar stack next to my 8 gauge reloader and have had the similar problem of getting the crimp to fully closed. The field-expediant fix was drip on some wax to fully seal the hull. The more permanent solution was to adjust the final crimp station.

Mmmm: 8g! I'm working through filling my first lot of 8g, some BP loads in yellow rem hulls at the moment - all by hand though, no machines. It's a tad tedious, but those finished cartridges have very satisfying heft to them!

Perhaps we should start a thread to consolidate 8g hand loading knowledge and resources? I've found info pretty scant.

Happy New Year everyone.
I could not agree more about broadening our collective knowledge of 8 bore reloading.

OK - I
ll cop to a level of ignorance here since I've not loaded on a MEC for 20+yrs. But I did load about a bazillion carts on a Grabber before I sent it down the road and moved to a Hornady - which of course sets up way different.
My only comment, obviously not relative to any 8ga things, is that I've forever been puzzled by the anality of some people in that they will NOT discard a case. And then often complain about the quality of the reload. I may not be the soul of thrift, but the love affair with the absolutely cheapest component in a load speaks to me of some problem that should be treated by a professional. Even when I was loading a few hundred/week and was scrimping with every bargain the $.05 case got loaded five times max and that was it. Now I pick them up for free and once is it. Actually I don't even do that right now the prices being that it costs me about $.01/bang shooting Wally's stuff compared to the cheapest load I could put together.
But that might just be me

have another day
Dr.WtS

I really don't understand the case comments - photos show brand new cases and 3-4 once fired. How are you to load - test- adjust without firing 1-2 or two eventually? Geez- if you want them newer than that ...

12g is fine, but with high cost and very limited availability to me of 8g - or 10, 16, or 28 - I'll make cases work until they're dead.

Wonkster, the reloading bug mainly impacts those who shoot guns that require special care and feeding. Lower pressure than the stuff you can find at Wallyworld. And you can also make up very nice, light 3/4 oz loads for both the 12 and the 20--and you're not going to find those in the big box stores either.

Wonco, you can't buy 8ga loads to shoot in your shotgun, they have to be reloaded and the extra ring around the brass has to be resized. Used Remington once fired hulls are $20/100 from Precision Reloading. I'm waiting on a Parker 8ga and have 48 resized hulls also waiting to be reloaded. Seeing how I don't have dies I'll probably roll crimp. Sorry, I didn't notice the shells were 8ga. If all else fails you could use a OS card under the fold crimp. I shoot mainly 12ga, and my 3/4oz loads cost about 3.45 a box. Try buying those for that price. They break clay birds just fine and don't recoil.

Yes, yes, yes. I'm aware of all that and it was my impetus as well to reload. Currently I forego that activity because I'm not gonna pay $20/lb for powder, $30+ for a bag of shot, etc, and then donate a few hrs of time to produce what I can simply buy for a few pennies more per box. Not when I'm only shooting a couple three maybe hundred a week. And I understand the not on the market type of loads that some use. I have a machine that has been dedicated to 24gm things since it came to my hands years ago.

My comment was prompted by tw's comment that there are a variety of ways that cases degrade. Considering how long he's been reloading I suspect that he has encountered nearly every one if not all of them. The simple way to avoid those problems in my opinion is to engage a level of reality and not fall into the sow's ear syndrome.

JMO - - - YMMV

have another day
Dr.WtS

Back to my original question - the hole. I am still fighting this. I have lowered the pre crimp to the point of crushing the shell - I have played with the cam adjust and it seems to make no difference. I have read the MEC manual and watched the videos. A few shells were ok - but the very next one would be quite open.
Ultimately I will get it, but my concern is memory in the plastic ---- are the ones crimping open going to always crimp open ? They are kinda pricey to screw them all up.

Have you thought about other options. I'd look at just putting a barrier over the shot. A thin nitro card or even a Teflon tape segment. That would cover the hole easily.

I do not like band aid repairs that skirt the real issue - I will likely use overshot cards on the ones buggered and not right - but adding the overshot card itself caused crimps to further deform and I prefer not to start there.

I have used Teflon tape. It works perfectly. Take up zero room. Buddy used the film they wrap around a house, tyvek I think it's called. Once crimped over the shot it does not move. I'd worry more about prolonging hull life than minor holes if shot does not come out.

Are the hulls so thick you need to skive them? Perhaps the plastic is too thick or stiff to crimp well the first loading. I have bought me virgin hulls with crimp areas so thick that to crimp well I had to remove a little of the plastic from the inside.

The other question is are eight bore shells best six point crimps or eight? Perhaps eightbore can answer that.