doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need a better classic

My sample is one A10 ........ two breakdowns. Four RBLs, three of them had single trigger problems, the other was ordered bespoke and when received was nowhere near what was specified. If they can't design a good single trigger of their own perhaps they should just copy a BSS trigger, or an SKB, or hell, a YILDIZ!! I have untold rounds through a single trigger Yildiz Elegante 4, with not a single issue.

OTOH, I own five Foxes, one HOT Elsie and one Stevens 330. The only one that has ever given me a problem that I couldn't handle myself, that had to go to the 'smith, is the Elsie. The wood began to crack behind the lock plates just recently, and is being repaired and glass bedded at John Garvin's. It was a restock, not the original wood, and was inletted a bit too tight behind the lock plates for the small amount of recoil bearing area that is in the head ...... a definite weakness with the Elsies. All other minor issues have been handled by me. Actually, over the years of shotgunning, I have had modern made guns in the shop much more than my vintage American doubles ...... MUCH more.

SRH

Stan,
Let me remind you, that you said Dewey had worked on one of your Foxes. I will assume it gave you problems that you couldn't handle.

In addition to the Elsie.

None of my modern guns, which, are pretty much pumps and autoloaders built since 1930, has ever been to a gunsmith. I broke a tang screw on a Browning A5, fixed with a replacement from Brownell's, and have installed quite a few lefty safety buttons in the same guns, along with stripping and cleaning them. My Dad's Beretta O/U broke a firing pin, which was repaired at Ahlman's while my Dad watched, and he bought two pins, just in case. I still have it. I glassbedded the head of a Remington model 17 stock, but, it was precautionary, there was nothing wrong with it.

I've never needed the services of a gunsmith to repair a Darne I owned. I've owned examples from every era, but, all right now are post war, 2 3/4" guns. Modern. I've done some elective stuff, but, none of mine, probably 20-25 guns over thirty years, ever broke. I can service quite a bit an a Darne R model on my own. People have sent a few dozen to me over the years, every example suffered butchery at the hands of someone who got in over his head with wife tools. A few times I opened a box, shook my head, and forwarded a gun off to Kirk.
Small sample also.

Not too many things in my life approach the reliability of the modern guns in my world. The printing equipment I make my living with sure as hell doesn't.

John, you, Sir, have just posted what has to be one of the best quotes of all time on the board. "The shortcomings of Old Reliable", if, I may paraphrase just a bit, is, itself, a classic. If Orwell had written about shotguns, we'd have seen it there, I'm sure. Probably in a story about a "American Doublegun Ministry of Truth" where people were beaten until they recanted, after they pointed out the dearly held American shotgun classics WERE just hardware store guns. After that, they would be forced to hunt with Saigas, which, were very ugly, but, always worked, so the joke was on the leaders.

Thanks, by the way. I laughed, hard, when I read that. I hope you can see why I thought it was funny, and can laugh at it, too.

Stan, the CSMC RBL gun I saw with an issue had a trigger problem, but it was a double trigger, where one or the other broke at a crisp 3 1/2lbs, and the other broke at about 15lbs. They fixed it, quickly.
Small sample there, too.

I've seen a lot of broken Parkers and Elsies at gunshows. You guys have to at least admit there are much better guns to count on for actual use. If a guy knows what he has going into the salvage of an example of either of those two designs, that is one thing, but, a rookie (I think I saw two of them here this week, looking for advice) ought to hear the rest of the story.

Best,
Ted

No, Ted I did not say that I had Dewey work in one of my Foxes. You read something into it that wasn't there, again. But, you're good at that. I said "he has had one of mine in his shop". It was there for an evaluation to determine if I could have him refit a set of new, old stock 32" that had been shoddily "fitted" by another well known shop. We discussed it and decided it wasn't worth the effort. That does not qualify as a repair, does it? Nothing was broken. I was just attempting to mate an orphaned receiver to a set of barrels.

Is is just another example of your narrow mindedness ....... not being able to see possibilities other than your own myopic view. I'm done with this discussion, but I enjoyed it. Thank you.

SRH

While I have never taken parts off double other than simple breakdowns into three pieces the NID I examined was pretty well finished even in places not seen when the gun is fully assembled. I do like poor finish on Spanish, Belgian,..... clunkers because I can quickly tell quality from junk.

Interesting discussion. Coming late to the party, I'd toss in a few tidbits:

American doubles, in general, were built more like tools designed for hard use than were most British doubles. But Americans and Brits also adopted different approaches to maintaining their guns. Americans shot their guns until something broke. Then back to the factory, or to the local gunsmith. Brits, after the season was over, would send their pair of whatevers back to the maker for whatever attention they needed. Even if they were in perfect working order. Preventive maintenance . . . sort of like visiting your dentist a couple times a year vs waiting until you have a toothache. Drives American collectors nuts, because American collectors want "original". Well, if a Brit double needed reblacking, it got reblacked . . . so no longer original. Just a different approach. Speaking here of the real classics, not the hardware store guns on this side of the Atlantic, nor the "keeper's gun" on the other side.

Re American originals: Ted, surely you're not forgetting that the Remington 32 is essentially a copy of a French OU: the Petrik. Not nearly as popular as your Darnes. But then that particular design is still alive and well today in the Krieghoff OU's. And for a gun that came along late, in terms of American classics--it was really the last of them--the 32 didn't sell very well. But then OU's weren't all that popular when the 32 came out either.

The problem with a lot of American classics, especially the entry level ones--Sterlingworths, Trojans, Ithaca and Elsie Field Grades--is that they may have been attended to by the village idiot rather than a real gunsmith who knows what he's doing.

IMO, the best buys in the used gun market--in terms of guns that will sustain a lot of use (take a licking and keep on ticking)--fall into what I'd call the "older but not vintage" category. Ithaca SKB, Browning BSS, Miroku-made Charles Daly, and the Italian "B" guns (Beretta and Bernardelli). Hard to go wrong unless you get your hands on one that's really beat up. There's nothing on the market today--again, IMO--that matches what you get in an Ithaca SKB Model 100 for the money you'll pay. You do need to live with a single trigger (but a very reliable one) and extractors. But those guns now have half a century of use behind them, and they've stood the test of time. And when it comes to modern ammo, they'll eat pretty much anything you feed them.

I note that the Remington 32 has popped up in discussion by several posters. I posted this photo of Billy's M32 last January in the Favorite Game/Gun thread. The gun was purchased new by his granddad during the Depression. He had Simmons fit skeet barrels in .410, 28, 20 and 12. The gun was passed on to Billy's dad who in turn passed it on to Billy. Billy's son, now 25, will eventually become steward, and perhaps Billy's grandson will receive it. The photo was taken the last day of Georgia's woodcock season this past January. It has the 20 gauge barrel on it. It's a heckuva gun with a remarkable legacy.

Many years ago Remington 32 was one of the best deals going until the "Parker Bros. crowd" learned how few were actually made. That is when the deals went away and the guns disappeared. Good news is one can still get certain Savage marked O/U for very little money. The Parker Boys will not take a Savage unless it is the 1899 with some scroll, but that O/U Savage made in Northern Europe is possibly the best bang for the buck in the used O/U market.

I think my points were that a guy with Dewey's level of talent had better things to do than work on the typical, American classic. And, that a gunsmith at that level would likely be honest enough to tell you that.

Although you implied he had worked on a Fox, the truth was he helped you determine it wasn't worth it.

I think you have just illustrated my point better than I did, Stan.

Thank You.

Best,
Ted

Sounds like you need BL or BLE from Birmingham England. Likely choices would be: Webley Scott, G.E.Lewis (of machine gun fame), BSA and "Demon works" (sorry do not remember official name of company). I would look for something with original 2&3/4" chambers and proof of 3&1/4 tons per square inch or more. Might have to stretch that budget by $500 or little more, but you did say you wanted an upgrade.

Larry,
RE your comment that American doubles were, generally, built for hard use. Some, really weren't. A gun with the amount of wood between the action and head of the stock (little) and corrosive solder/flux used to knit the barrels together, not to mention the lack of support for the toplever spindle and other Rube Goldbergian screwups that an LC Smith is a showcase of, is not intended for hard use. The "Old Reliable" is a complicated mess inside, and has a perfectly designed splitting maul for an action, riding on the head of the stock. Yes, the village idiot has seen some, but, the really good gunsmiths have often seen the light.
The very expensive English guns, purchased by the well to do, did get the service you spoke of (they were unbelievably expensive, even then) but, for every one of them were half a dozen game keepers guns or lesser boxlocks that didn't, and many, many, of them seem to have survived, and keep right on chugging.
There is much to frustrate Murphy's law on an A&D pattern boxlock, constructed in England. I believe that the reason we have those wonderful best buy guns you refer to is that the companies that produced them, in Italy, Japan, or wherever decided to copy and improve where they could the typical Anson & Deeley, and NOT something like the Elsie.
The Petric is still alive in the form of the Petric, by the way Larry. They have been produced in St. Etienne for about a decade, now. Nice gun. Expensive gun. Nobody here knows about them.

Best,
Ted