doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help me choose Webley & Scott or Merkel 47e?

Need gun to go bird hunting. I have found two candidates lightly used Webley & Scott BLE in very good condition. It is 12ga 2&3/4" 3&1/4 tons per square inch 25" barrels, Churchill Rib, 1/4-3/4 chokes straight grip double triggers. The other candidate is 12ga Merkel Bros. Modell 47e BLE with Greener X-bolt, 28" barrels 3" chamber 1/4-3/4 chokes, straight grip double triggers, box, papers, ie like new condition dating back to 1989. Both fit me well and have similar handling characteristics. Which one would you choose and why? I would like the one that my family will have easier time to move when I'm no longer here. Thanks.

I have three Merkels in 12 ga., 20 ga., and a delightful 28 ga. built on a baby frame. I've always wanted an English gun, but chose the Merkels because of their recent and current manufacture, which lends them to current servicing and parts by GSI. I hunt with all of them and feel confident that they will go the distance and outlive me. As an aside, I also have two Browning BSS-SL's in 12 and 20. I love them dearly, but realize that if parts are needed, I'm on my own. It comes down to a choice of barrel length for you. My Merkels are all 28" and my Brownings are both 26". I do well with both lengths.
Karl

25" barrels are not easy to sell in a 12 bore. Be easier in a 20 but not as a 12. So if reselling is important I'd stay away from the 25".

I'm with Jon on this one.

Mate, 25" barrels go off like a howitzer & are not generally appreciated by hunting buddies. As a big fellow I also feel them to be stubby, coach gun like.

If that Webley had 28" or 30" barrels I would be on to it as long as it was no more expensive than the Merkel. But that is only due to my romance with British guns.

You did not mention weight & that may come into it if you will be carrying it a lot on your bird hunts.

Both BLE.
Both have straight grip.
Both have double triggers.
Both 12g
Both fit & handle similar.
Both choked the same.

All these things I also like in a gun, but I also like the 3" chambers & 28" barrels of the Merkel.
3" chambers because of the versatility they give you in being able to shoot soft loads & hard.

Does the Merkel have the fleur de lis proof mark for steel shot & a 1350 bar proof. If so that would be the clincher for me because then it can be used if you want to go after ducks.
To me the Merkel seems like more gun, & I like more gun sometimes. If you buy a less of a gun, then you can not safely use it as more.
I could put up with a Teutonic gun If it gave me enough more.

Which one speaks lovingly to you when you hold it ?
O.M

Hello:

I think that, in any case, you will need to open the tight choke.
For a "bird" gun 3/4 choke, or IMP MOD, is "too much choke".

Regards,

Weight is important to me & the one thing not mentioned in the description.

Go with the W&S I have used almost exclusively a XXVBL and it has taken more grouse than I can count

I have made mistake with respect to W-S. The left barrel is half choke.

Well !
Have you chosen one yet ?
If so, which one & why ?
O.M

25 inch barrels on a 12 ga are a no go for me, unless its a ultra light 2" chamber. I prefer 28, 30 and longer barrels in a 12 ga.

If you buy the Merkel- and you should, I have a mint warranty card and manual- in English and also in Deutsch- for a 470 double, FYI-- I'd almost always take the 28" barrels over the shorter Churchill XXV series- but that's just me-- you pays your money and you takes your pick--

Buy them both. Shoot them both, hard, for a year. Three years would be better.

At the end of the three year period, one will sort out to be the better candidate. Sell the other. If both work out well, keep both, and let your heirs figure out what to do with them after you croak with custody of two decent guns, or sell the one that is in a state of lower condition. If you don't know at the end of three years of use which works out better for you, you haven't shot them enough.
I don't know how anybody could tell you which gun to buy and use without seeing either of them, or, you.

A slight aside based on personal observation, I don't care for strikers that are integral with the tumblers. I think both of these guns fall into that catagory, however.

Good luck.

Best,
Ted

Moses, I haven't decided yet, but right now W&S is the front runner for the following reasons given in no particular order:
1. Shorter barrels will make me look taller
2. I have couple buckets of 2.5" low recoil slugs from B&P plus several boxes of 2&1/4" Italian shells with SG shot. This is significant because by buying 25" SxS with open chokes I can dump my "Police type" HD guns leaving me with only one shotgun for both HD and hunting.
3. The W&S has professionally installed thin Pachmayr 'Old English" pad giving LOP of nearly 15". This will help with proper gun mounting and more importantly prevent gun from sliding on hardwood oak floors when stored behind doors or in corners of room(s). Such storage is prudent for gun serving HD role.
4. The W&S is $1000 less than the Merkel which represents substantial saving for what amounts to equal quality gun. Both are mass produced SxS shotguns.
and $1000 still buys lots of grocery bags even if Kosher and or Organic quality food products are chosen.
5. While both guns are in excellent mechanical order and still tight the English gun as expected is much easer to break down and put together. The German gun requires more force and strain to put back together and break down. This adds much to pleasure to using the English gun. Lets face it is no fun to break the gun "over the knee" to reload it.

I do not agree fully with this assesament. In places like Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan,... yes where I reside no. Here they do love their Land Rovers, Land Cruisers, Minis and Jaguars. What Englishmen wear in the field is worn on Sundays here. Most will never give Gebruder Merkel made in DDR a second look. In the future they will not even know what DDR represented.

Jm, it doesn't sound like any of your reasons have much to do with bird hunting. Seriously, use your riot gun for now and see if more choices turn up after the season at good prices. I'm not really wondering, but 1k price difference, and the W&S is more popular in your neck of the woods? Put half in a cookie jar and get the groceries with the rest.

Keep the riot issue shotgun(s) for HD--best weapon for CQC ops. ever made- with 00 buckshot- Buy the Merkel- German shotguns are top shelf in quality, design and metallurgy- and then buy my Merkel owners manual and registration card- Der Fuchs!!

I've owned a lot of Merkels, mostly 12ga. They tend to be stout but heavy. Also, generally speaking, I've never seen a German gun to match the ergonomics of an English gun. For grouse the 25" barrels won't be a problem. The tapered Churchill rib gives the appearance of a longer barrel. My preference is 28" barrels but I'm shooting a bespoke left hand SXS 20ga with screw chokes. It weighs 5lb 7oz pounds and the 28" barrels are perfectly balanced.

I also looked over: West German Sauer Royal 16ga, 20ga Merkel 147EL and 12ga Winchester-Parker (Olin Kodensha). I concluded that 25" Webley Scott was the best handling gun for the money spent. While I went to look over the gun to make the final selection by pure accident I found my Ole' Man upland gun. I brought home 2&3/4" 20 ga with 28" barrel. The unladen weight is 4lb5oz. Thank you very much for your generous help.

It will be very nice to carry, and close to impossible to shoot well. It will also kick like a ten gauge.

Good luck. I mean that.

Best,
Ted

Jagermeister is merely a tire kicker. He has taken us down this path several times in the past, but still doesn't own even one double gun. His only shotgun is a short barreled late model Ithaca Model 37 pump, but recently he went back to claiming to own two short barreled Ithaca Model 37 pump shotguns. Since this is the internet, I suppose I could claim to own Bo Whoop and the Czars Parker. But claiming to own guns that I don't would be pathetic on so many levels.

This is a guy who actually rents guns, including a Chinese .22 LR bolt action. The last time he took us on one of his window shopping trips, it was for an Ithaca NID 20 gauge which he told us he had on layaway... because he couldn't afford to buy it outright. Several weeks later, he said he had to let the Ithaca NID go because he needed the funds to buy some cheap semi-auto handgun. I got a kick out of his notion about buying the 25" barreled gun because the short barrels will make him look taller. I guess that explains the short barreled Ithaca pump. Yet this self-professed short guy was also considering a W&S with a 15" LOP. Sounds a bit like gunfitting for a chimpanzee. But it appears his final decision was a 4lb. 5oz. single shot 20 gauge. That ought to be a good gun to burn up those buckets of 12 gauge slugs. Maybe he ought to consider renting a Chinese Derringer to cover all of his needs. At least he'd finally have a double barreled gun.

A gun made in 1989, unless reproofed, would not have the fleur de lys or "steel shot" as a proofmark. Those marks first appeared in 2005.

A 20ga double that weighs under 5#? Must not be a fisherman's scale. They always weigh heavy. I'm thinking that one weighs light.

If the W&S is one of the modern 700 series guns (likely, from the tons proofmarks), then it won't have separate strikers. My model 400 (predecessor of the 700 series) does have disc-set strikers. So it's possible this W&S has them also . . . IF it had been reproofed sometime between 1954 and the late 80's.

Well-meaning participants in this discussion have been had. Someone who walks out of a gunshop door with what would have to be a single-shot at the stated weight of 4.5 lbs. had no intentions of ever spending $2-3K on a fine double. He who claims that a bucket full of slugs "wags the tail" in influencing a decision of buying a "bird gun", either a Merkel or W&S, has got to be kidding us and/or himself.

It looks like a "toy" yet the barrel states Proof Tested 20ga 2&3/4" Chamber. The magazine tube holds 4 cartridges. The barrel is alloy with four position choke adjustment knob at the end. The barrel must be steel lined because inside has mirror like finish found on typical shotgun. The wood is walnut finished off with Jostam pad. Neat light pump that can be hunted with few times a year using RST 3/4oz 20 gauge shells. When I see something interesting I have never seen before I buy it.

A gun made in 1989, unless reproofed, would not have the fleur de lys or "steel shot" as a proofmark. Those marks first appeared in 2005.

As Vol suggested the Birminham gun handled better than the rest. I meant to check if Merkel 47E had "Boy Scout" monogram on flats but never got past taking the for end off. When new or as new those modern mass-produced German doubles are notoriously hard to break down and even harder to put together. I didn't want to leave young fella at the counter with gun broken down into three pieces. There was no point because I would have picked Webley & Scott anyway. Not sure what model the W&S was but there was fairly good amount of light engraving, but no disk strikers. It was made sometime after WWII as 2&3/4" 3&1/4 tons per square inch suggest. I would guess 1950s when shorter barrel and Churchill rib were still in vogue. Great little knockabout rainy day gun.

PS. What is it they say? If you want good used game gun and have to choose between European or British and guns are of roughly same finish/quality you buy British gun. If you want affordable car insurance you get Geico?

I'm going to quote me, because nothing you have posted makes what I said untrue.

A sub 5lb 20 gauge would only be really cool if you had to hike doubletime for 6-8 hours, through country that had no birds, and no possibility of any shooting.

I'd tell you to get some practice at the range with it, but, I suspect that would invite a really bad headache. Maybe take two asprin before going?

Truly, Good Luck.

Best,
Ted

I agree it's not a dove gun or range gun, but rough shooting gun. By rough shooting I mean very long nature walk with few shots fired cotton tail, swamp rabbit,..... or squirrel being the usual game. It is a half a cart of groceries from Walmart curio gun or poor man's Ithaca 37 Ultrafeatherweight. I think it was made by famous American aluminum foil maker.