doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Flues markings

Has anyone seen this type of Flues marking error before? I messaged the owner and he said it is definitely a 20ga. and the numbers match. Water table shows 16ga. special.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/600405354

Strange.

Looks like a barrel retrofit.

Double stamped on the barrels.
All my Fluesettes serial numbers always look the same on both surfaces.

First thing I would do is have him put a 20 shell into the gun. More than one 16 has been listed and sold as a 20 on Gunbroker. Most by mistake, but a few intentional. A 20 is far easier to sell than a 16 to most buyers. After all everyone knows they don't sell 16 shells anymore. And returning a gun listed as 20 which is a 16 is a real hassle. Been there and done that.

Funny how many photos are cropped to not show stuff I'd like to see. Like the choke markings on the barrels. There is one gun on Gunbroker which shows multiple closeups of the sides of the stock and barrels but zero full pictures, no views of the receiver and no view of anything where you could judge wood to metal fit. Worse you can not figure out what model the gun is based off the listing and that makes it impossible to figure out if the gun is worth anything or just scrap. Funny how bad photos tell you as much as good photos sometimes.

Looks like a fairly high condition Flues 16-gauge Field Grade to me --



Ithaca Gun Co. was building some very light weight 16-gauges in those years before WW-I --



Picture 12 goes to the front edge of the barrel flats, and there are no choke markings. What I find odd about the gun is that the grip has the coarse flat-topped checkering and the forearm has finer pointed up checkering? Perhaps an original 16-gauge gun had a set of 20-gauge barrels and forearm added at some point in time.

Bet its a 16ga...Geo

Could be Geo. But the heavy stamping bugs me. And, the splotchy coloring where the hand typically carries says "Head and Shoulders" to me as well.
And, as Dave pointed out, that ain't S model forend checkering.

I have a few original condition Fluesies, and I hate rubba dubs, so, Buyer beware.

I sent the seller a request that he would try to fit a 16 gauge shell in the chamber.
Will let you know the response
Mike

UPDATE!!!!!!

I don�t have a 16 gauge shell handy but you may be right. The owner said it is a 20 Ga. I�m going to take the auction down until I verify.

UPDATE TO UPDATE
Now auction changed to 16 GAUGE
Minimum Bid
$899.00

I doubt this is an original 1911- after aprox Ithaca added the set screw at the rear area of the forearm, and the fotos show this set screw- of course, the forearm on the gun as shown may be a replacement, and not origianl to the gun. A serial number check in Walt Snyder's Ithaca reference book would clarify this- nice looking Flues, regardless of gauge.

Might explain the two differing checkering patterns on the grip and forearm.

Thanks for all of the help gentlemen!
I didn't catch the checkering. Some of my Flues have flat and some pointed up. It didn't click that this one had both.

price is also way over the actual 500/600 value......

Already has one bid

one born every minute.....

Clapper,
I am interested in your comments. What do you see as "double Stamped?. Also, what do you mean by "the splotchy coloring where the hand typically carries says "Head and Shoulders" to me as well." What does' head and shoulders' mean?? I am a little slow so please help me understand. Please don't get offended, I just don't understand your post. But then I have already been placed into the category of "one born every minute" by Gunut so that is the mentality of who you are responding to.
Well I must admit the moon shine business has been good so far and I can use another shotgun; and I have some uncommitted cash. I need to ask the seller if he needs some shine. Maybe we can do a deal?? Got some really good apple based stuff cooking as we speak.
16 gauge is not a problem. Pappy loads all our stuff and we only need it when we are fussed with.

Now Walt, you know them 16's ain't good for much being a dead gauge, with no ammo sold and not even a 3" much less the better 3 1/2". Heck they wont kill as far as 12. Are you trying to sucker them city boys into buying a couple of your old 16? I do know it is a good year for a taste but best run when it is colder.

Walt I had the same questions but didn't want to ask. I'm old and slow myself.

There "Have Been" 3" 16 gauge guns. In fact I have one, a 16 gauge H grade Lefever with 3" chambers. If memory serves me correctly it was in the late 1970's I was at my favorite gun shop of the time & a gentleman brought in a fired 3" 16 ga Remington Express SP hull he had found while deer hunting. He was in the mountains in one of the few areas in TN that holds a few grouse, so was possibly used for one of them. It was marked as 3 de-1� oz #7� shot as I recall. Wondered at the time just why anyone would want, or need, an ounce & a half of #7�'s. Generally speaking by the time the pattern is getting too thin with an ounce of 7�'s you need to be going to a larger shot size.

Anyway I would love to see the 16 make a grand comeback, but seriously hope an extra length "Magnum" version never catches on.

I'm sure someone will recall--I can't--but seems I remember that the 3" 16 didn't last for long. Miller's Lefever would be pre-WWI. I was thinking the 3" 16 came along later, but I might have been recalling McIntosh's reference in his Fox book to the fact that they attempted to make a 16 gauge Super Fox. Didn't succeed. CPT Askins wrote that he was involved in the effort, but they were unable to produce those 80% average patterns. He does not refer specifically to a 3" gun, but he does talk about "chamber, bore, choke and cone changes."

That is a little steep opening bid for a 16 gauge field grade with its inherent limited application. But, at 6 lbs. 2 oz. plus the sweet balance that the Flues has, definitely a sweet little upland game gun.

Or a gun to scatter those pesky 'revenuers' that snoop around in dem dar hills with a load of buckshot.

Ain't that the truth! I shot doves many years ago with a family who used 3 3/4-1 1/4-9 loads. Even as a 12-13 year old kid I knew that didn't make any sense.

SRH

Walt,

FWIW, The "Head and SHoulder's" treatment is Cold blue.
The same active ingredients as Head and Shoulders shampoo. It has a smell.

Shotguns wear in a predictable pattern.
If a gun is 100+ years old, and the pattern is broken, then what?

Like 2-piper, I have one also. It's a 2E Elsie built in July '07--the only Elsie reported with 3" chambers. I also have two unfired 3" shells- one Peters and one Ajax.
I've read somewhere that Winchester produced M21 3" guns at the beginning.

Just like the 12- and 20-gauges, from the get go in the 1880s and 90s a number of different length 16-gauge shells were offered. Into the 1930s the "standard 16-gauge shell in North America was 2 9/16 inch, but 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths were offered. This is from the 1927 Peters Cartridge Co. catalog --



From the 1901 UMC catalog --



In those days the extra length 16-gauge shells didn't offer any heavier loads then could be had in the "Standard" 2 9/16 inch shell, but did offer more/better wadding which many gun cranks thought significant.

The first time I've found a longer 16-gauge shell with a "hotter" load, came in 1931 when Remington Arms Co., Inc. introduced their Model 11 and "The Sportsman" autoloaders in 16-gauge made for 2 3/4 inch shells. Their regular progressive burning powder, high velocity, 16-gauge NITRO EXPRESS load was 3 drams equiv. pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot. For their new autoloaders and other 2 3/4 inch chambered 16-gauge guns they introduced their AUTO EXPRESS load of 3 1/4 drams equiv. pushing that 1 1/8 ounce of shot --









If such a shell exists, it was never a catalog item. Possibly something they were experimenting with?!?

Researcher;
Thanks for the input, yes I was aware that the various length shells were offered as an option during that time frame. Primarily for that reason I have always suspect this Lefever was ordered with the long chambers when bought new. As the 3" shells in 16 were never truly a "Standard" it seems unlikely it would have been rechambered for this length. Also it has a standard cone, not an extended one as if someone had lengthened the cones & lengthened the chambers in the same process.
At the time the gentleman brought in that 3" Remington SP 16ga hull I wrote to the NRA about it. They had no knowledge of its existence but also highly suspected it was experimental.
I can definitely attest to the fact that at least one existed. It appeared to have been rather recently fired when the man found it, markings on the hull were very distinct & it was obviously longer than the 2 3/4" standard. The only part I am in question on is the exact dates & the Dram Equivalent marking. As I think back though it had to be between around 1974 & 1976. I distinctly remember the 1�oz of #7� shot. The DE was either 3 or 3� but I am remembering just 3. I remember at the time it fell into what would be basically considered a "Low Velocity" load.

Years back in a shotgun sporting magazine I read an article about pattern testing the 3 inch 20 gauge against the 2 3/4 inch 16 gauge. The 16 gauge was throwing better patterns at 40 yards than the 20 gauge was throwing at 30 yards.

Granted the testing has limited application as he only compared a few shotguns with their individual barrels and chokes and forcing cones, but still very informative.

I briefly owned a 1923 vintage Ideal Grade with 32" barrels marked 3 inch. Unfortunately, Colonel Brophy's letter did not specify the chamber length, so, I don't know if they were original.

Roundsworth,
If your gun had the football-shaped "chambers--3 inch" stamp on the flats, it was factory bored.My 2E has a line stamp and does not letter either, but the earlier factory bored non-standard guns were stamped as such.

This one sold today:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/599927902

While not the safe queen the gun in the original post is, this one should make the new owner quite proud.