doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How much can I shoot?

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I could not find it. How much can one shoot a vintage double given the gun is in excellent shape and in proof? The loads used would be under 8000 psi. What is most prone to break? Thanks.

Jim

Hello Jim
Good question
What vintage double.
How vintage? 1880's, 1900's 1950's???
All this would help us answer your question
Mike

Assuming the gun has been evaluated by a doublegun specialist smith:

How much can one shoot a vintage double? Depends if it is a lightweight 3 Ton proved British game gun, or a heavy 12b 3 1/2 Ton proved Waterfowl gun.
What is most prone to break? The wood at the head of the stock, or possibly the wrist.
The loads used would be under 8000 psi. Recoil is as important as pressure Vern. For what load was the gun proved, and when?

Scroll down toward the bottom here for some thoughts
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

The short answer is 'until something does break'.

I'm not meaning to be a smartass with that comment, but nobody can predict the service life of any machine. There are just too many variables.

There are steps you can take, like preventive maintenance and operation within the design parameters that will extend the service life.

Minor problems need to be addressed before they become big problems, clean fresh lube on wear points, conservative loads, and closing with a 'snap' and not a 'TWANG' and the gun will likely outlast you.

Fortunately, we have craftsmen who can fix and repair just about anything so rather than fret just shoot the thing and enjoy it.

1900's action sleeved and proved to 3 tons 1 1/8 oz in the '50's. Six pound 12 bore York House, London Boxlock. Everything is tight and looks good. 3/4 or 7/8 oz loads for skeet and 1 oz loads for birds. I purchased the gun from Hill Rod and Gun quite a few years ago and shot less than a box or two of 1 oz loads at 7200 psi. I would like to start shooting a couple of rounds of skeet a week and wondered how the gun would hold up to 4-5 hundred rounds per year.

If it's in good condition, the gun will outlast you. Fiocchi Training Loads at 7/8oz of 8s, 6600psi, make a great factory skeet load if you don't want to roll your own.

And all hail the return of Doc Drew!

It seems like you would hardly miss it. Treat it well, and use it the way you think it is meant to be used. If it goes down, it seems like you have back up.

Vern,
I can attest to the longevity of my early style Fox A grade with 28 inch IC and Full barrels, SN 7983, probably made around 1907 +/-. I've owned the gun a little over 48 years.
Back when lead was OK for waterfowl, I shot many rounds of 2 3/4 inch magnums at ducks and geese.
And in the last 5 or 6 years, based on my empty primer boxes, I've put about 6000 rounds thru it. About 90% of those have been low pressure 1/2 and 3/4 ounce hand loads in a 2 3/4 inch hull.
Everything is still tight, no evidence of wear or splits or cracks and still closes like a bank vault.
A real classic.
Just my experience.

Jolly

I have a Joseph Lang non-rebounding hammer gun with Damascus replacement barrels by James Woodward. The gun was completed March 6, 1866 and I have no clue how much it was shot before I bought it. I've shot about 6,000 7/8 ounce loads at 1050 fps, both RST and my reloads, through this gun since I bought it. I've not had a single mechanical issue with it and when I do my job clays break and quail die. Too bad it does it's part much better than I do mine.

I've been shooting a 1901 Parker with what appears to be (from Drew's excellent site) 4 iron Turkish.

The gun has an unknown history but clearly has had some partial restoration work.

I weighed the powder can just now, and I've loaded and fired 1,600 appropriate loads in the last 3 years.

The gun looks, closes and fires exactly as when I first bought it.

I expect it will do so for many years to come.

It's 115. Incredible.

I've put several thousand through a 1924 vintage Webley & Scott Model 400. Mostly 7/8 oz low pressure at targets; some 1 oz; now a few 1 1/16 oz British (Gamebore) hunting loads. Recently replaced the strikers. But, as noted above, I have no idea how much it had been shot before I bought it.

Vern: you are making good choices. Don't worry...shoot a lot...be happy...and have great and safe bird season

J.F. Kerman "Let's Get Going"

If it weighs just 6 lbs, your shoulder may break before the gun. I like 3/4oz reloads through my 8 lb Parker hammer gun with Damascus barrels - no recoil. It got shot three times a week at the club until I bought other SxS's. Good luck, and I wouldn't worry about anything breaking.

Top 3 vintage american doubles prone to crack the stock if u shoot a lot. Psi has little todo with it.

1. L C Smith
2. LC Smith
3. L.C. Smith

Now THAT, made me laugh!


Best,
Ted

Yeah, that's true. But I still love'em...Geo

Thanks guys. At six pounds it is a pleasure to carry, but a couple of boxes of 1 oz loads make me remember my physics lessons. The 3/4 oz loads are easy on the shoulder.

Jim

I've shot a pile of 1 oz loads from 6lb guns with no problems at all. Shot a bundle of them from a 6lb 20 ga Ithaca flues before I learned the model was prone to cracking the frame. They were for the most part the 2�-1 loads so velocity a bit under 1200 fps. I've also shot 1oz loads from a 5lb 14oz Darne/Halifax with no discomfort at all. The old "Rule of Thumb" of gun weight = 96 times the shot weight is dead on for a 6lb gun for an ounce of shot. This is supposed to be good for steady shooting, i have used heavier loads on numerous occasions than this ration where only a few shots would be involved. I have fired some 20 ga 3" magnum loads of 1�oz from a 6� lb gun. It wasn't that Flues, it was a gun chambered & proofed for them, a Richland 707. This gives a ratio of only 80:1. You knew the recoil was there & would would not have wanted to have shot a lot of them in real rapid succession but for hunting use when I was fairly heavily clothed they were not at all bothersome.
It did of course have new wood on it, the biggest danger in a lot of use to an old gun is the wood I believe.
The L C Smith is not the only gun which will crack stocks either, many will do so.

Piper I follow you for years here and respect agree with most of your writings but I believe that old wood danger is some thing come up by owners of Elsies and wrongly applyed with broad brush to all vintage guns. Kind of like misery loves company. I agree some box locks will get stock cracks from recoil or what ever but it is FACt that cracked stocks are the rule with LC rather than exception. You shoot sweet Elsie a lot with any thing but low recoil target type loads it's goimng to crack and not if but when. Many advise to glassbed the side plates and back of top tang to help with cracking. Yah right you got a classic vintage double gun and have to slobber its insides with modern epoxy. Or for hunting youd better not use what your buddy has in his parker , Fox or Ithica Nid. What a joke. The O.P asked which vintage guns are prone to problems when shot alot. Asked and answered for american doubles.

Me and my shooting buddies shoot reguraly with vintage English guns. One has a 1909 Purdey and another has a 1880 Purdey hammer gun. I have another friend who shows up with something new about every week.
I and my bud's have had our break downs. My Atkin broke a cocking spring. It is an "Spring Opener" much like a Purdey.
Now that was an expensive repair.
Shooting low pressure loads work great and you should enjoy your gun while you can.

Old Joe, your certitude regarding Elsies seems to preclude any other American double as having a cracked stock issue. While not disagreeing with your take on Smiths, it should be obvious to anyone with eyes that Remington 1894's and 1900's have a serious cracking problem. It may have been asked and you may have answered but your answer was insufficient (and reeking with self importance)

Like many of you, I shoot century old SxS's. Doing so means that I will sometime have to replace minor parts, sears, springs, firing pins, etc.

When I hunt, I have a spare/second shotgun in the car.

It also means that I often have a SxS shotgun residingat the gunsmith's shop awaiting parts and/or repairs. Just part of the routine.

There are also two modern semi-auto's in the basement, so I can always go shooting/hunting.

JERRY

I have not owned a lot of Elsies but haven't had one with a cracked stock. First one i ever had was a pre '13 OO grade (Bottom of the Line) that had been rode hard, but its stock was still intact. Have has a few Ithaca Flusies, one of them had a cracked stock, in fact I bought it real cheap on that account. Of all my Lefevers I have one with a broken stock, not cracked per se, but broken. It was bought as a parts gun with several issues including a "Crack" in the Barrel. Elsies may have a higher percentage than others "Maybe" but they surely don't have a monopoly on cracked stocks.
Of course the original question here was as I recall concerning an English gun.
I have a pre 1900 Birmingham built J P Clabrough I have used considerably. On one hunt one barrel quit firing, so finished the hunt using it as a single. It is a back action sidelock with plates that look like a bar action. Turned out it had broken the stirrup in that lock, just made a new one for it & it still shoots "Both Barrels".
"theoretically" boxlocks are supposed to have stronger stocks than sidelocks, but I have seen about as many boxlocks with cracked stocks as sidelocks.

I've owned several Elsies that had small cracks behind the lockplates. None ever seemed to get much worse. I'd assume the damage was done by someone firing heavy recoiling loads in them. Considering the thin sections in the inletting of an Elsie, it's amazing that more of them aren't busted. I've seen a lot of Parkers and Remingtons with pins, dowels, carriage bolts, etc. through the stock cheeks, because the butt stock split. I've also owned and seen quite a few Lefevers that had wood split or missing in the thin fragile fingers above and below the sideplates where the wood meets the action. Ithaca Flues guns seem especially prone to having chunks of wood split out at the top of the action on either side of the upper tang. Some of these problems are inherent in the design, but most are exacerbated by use of heavy loads, loose screws, stock oil soaking, and other abuse. Others could have been foreseen because of the incorrect grain flow in the stocks.

I shoot 1890's Blanch shotguns only. I have never had one break down in a day's shooting and I guess I have spread about 10k cartridges between about 4 guns over the last 10 years.
Sure, they have gone out of wack, occasionally shot a bit loose, ejectors have had a hissy-fit etc etc but I have never had to use my spare gun (which I always take!).
Today, I shot a 44/50 on sporting with an 1880's Blanch SLE and beat all the OU's in my group. Joy!
Just get out there and use the old gal. She'll love you for it even if she breaks herself doing it.
(Okay, I have a nice workshop and the modest abilities to fix 'em but I would still shoot them even if I didn't.)
They are like a much loved dog or horse, they give and give.

I love using my vintage English doubles. Except for "skeet" and occasional water fowling with my Benelli M1 Super 90 they are all I shoot. I have converted several of my friends into English box locks and side locks and they too developed a real love for them. I have told them that they can expect to have to replace a spring now the then as the guns are 100 + years old and things can fail after that passage of time. 12 years and 1/2 dozen fine guns I have had to replace main springs on 2 and both springs on my Spanish side lock high grade Gaspar Arizaga. I have now a really nice Horton of Glasgow that is in need of a new right main spring. Not too bad of a track record for guns that see a lot of use. 2 have had a new finish applied after removal of old oil and grime accumulated over time. That's all that has been needed and a small cost to enjoy some very nice guns.

I am sure I have mentioned this before, BUT: I shot SC for a long time with a Lefever H that was WELL used..I put thousands of rounds through it. I had a clays course with electric trap behind my hay barn at the old place and almost EVERY day shot 100 rocks. It broke a hammer at a Vintager shoot at Cabelas. Buck Hamlin had it back to me in less than 10 days for under 100 bucks. I foolishly sold it, when I moved out of the country. BUT I bet its still going...

PS: So am I...