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What does this two shell pattern at at 25 yards say about "full" choked barrel on early 12 ga. field grade Winchester Model 21 One inch circle is point of aim 
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Says to me that it's good for rising birds.
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It would be shooting too high for me, but that can be corrected. Other than that, fine looking patterns. I assume that's 7 1/2s or 8s.
Is that two shells out of the same barrel, or did you mean that it is one shell out of each barrel and they both are choked full? If the latter, it looks to be excellent regulation, too.
SRH
Last edited by Stan; 09/08/16 06:35 AM.
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I wouldn't consider those "Full" patterns.
Even with soft shot, set back deformation, and OTC speeds, it looks too wide for me.
I get shredded paper plates at 40 with "Full".
But I'm no M21 guy either.
It definitely shoots quite high.
You'd have to shoot 2' or more below decoying ducks.
Out there doing it best I can.
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a faster load would most likely pattern lower.....
gunut
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a faster load would most likely pattern lower..... Please explain why this would be the case. thanks jlb
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The barrel expert, Ken Eyster believed a 5-shot group best to establish POI. With only 2 shots you could easily flinch on one of them and data would then not be reliable. Less experimental error with 5 shots. Also, a single shot would be best for a study of pattern density.
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a faster load would most likely pattern lower..... Please explain why this would be the case. thanks jlb a faster load leaves the barrel b4 recoil raises the barrel causing the gun to throw the pattern higher....
gunut
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Why don't you check it at the standard 40 yards?
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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a faster load would most likely pattern lower..... Please explain why this would be the case. thanks jlb a faster load leaves the barrel b4 recoil raises the barrel causing the gun to throw the pattern higher.... What if the faster load has more recoil; as it will if the shot load is the same? DDA
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Bush, note that somewhere between 25 and 30 yards the effective diameters of tight and open choke patterns have a cross-over point. The open choke has passed peak bloom and is withering with increased distance while the tight choke is still blooming.
DDA
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I like those blooming full chokes.  SRH
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As I would use a Model 21 for almost everything so I wouldn't like how high that pattern is printing. But for a shotgun I would use only as a dedicated upland game gun I would think the higher pattern would be a benefit.
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Why don't you check it at the standard 40 yards?
I was at an outdoor pistol range and had to ask the other shooters to back up so I could do 25, which was the farthest mark.
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OK, fair enough. Limitations of the firing range. Understand.
I'll take a stab at it.
Since I don't know how wide the paper is, I'll assume the boxes holding the corners down are shotshell boxes at roughly 4".
1. The pattern is very well regulated left to right. A change in velocity of your shells may change that slightly. I'd say the velocity that you are using is what the gun was regulated for.
2. At 25 yards, your shot has lost about 1/3 of it's initial velocity. At 40 yards it's lost very near half. It takes as long for the shot to travel from 25 to 40 yards as it does from the muzzle to 25 yards. It will fall about 1.5" from what you observe at 25 yards to 40 yards. It will fall another 3 inches or so at 50 yards. This is why the 'sighting system' such as it may be gives all firearms an initial elevation above line of sight. Shotguns are normally expected to shoot to point of aim at 40 yards.
3. Considering the above, I observe about a shell box and a half elevation at 25 yards, so it shoots 6" high or maybe a tad more. At 40, it should be about 4 to 5" high, and just about to cross the sight line on the way down at 50 yards.
It looks like a full choke to me, and shoots just where I like a gun to shoot.
The deceiving thing is that the 'peak of the crest' must be about 25 yards and it's all downhill from there. The shot travels from 40 to 50 yards in the same it took to go the first 20 yards. The drag on small pellets is very high and even higher when they are smashed out of round.
A high shooting gun is your friend.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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It is impossible to tell for sure from the pic, but I don't think that the patterns shown are only 6" high. It appears to me that the entire upper fringe of the patterns may be completely off the paper. There is precious little pattern, besides fringe, below the point of aim. I would not be surprised, seeing more patterns shot on a larger plate or paper, if it were not shooting 80/20 high, at least 70/30.
Regardless, understanding that the shot drop will help things at long range does not help the situation at close range, where most birds are killed. The only way to properly shoot those patterns at close range is to "float" the bird above the bead, in space. From watching shooters try to do that for years, and trying to do it years ago on wild quail, I can tell you it is a recipe for poor shooting, and a lot of wounded birds. Since the vast majority of shots are taken at 30 yards or less, the better course is to have a gun that shoots no more that 60/40 high, or even flat (50/50), at those distances. My guns shoot flat to 60/40 high and I do not concern myself with shot drop on long shots. If I am "playing" with some really long stuff, 70-80 yards, like the #8 bird on a "Make A Break", I may hold over a tad. That is much easier to do than having to consistently float a bird on close shots. Dedicated trap guns and pigeon guns are a whole 'nuther animal, and are set up to shoot purposely high. Neither should influence how a game gun is set up.
Then, there is the shooter error of lifting the head off the stock slightly. This may be the most common shooter error with a shotgun ......that, and shooting behind. No one should set up a shotgun to accommodate errors, but if a gun is shooting as high as this one is, and the head lifts slightly, you've got a big "0" on the scorecard, or a missed bird, because your load will go even higher.
JMO, based on my experiences.
SRH
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I don't see a big problem with it most game you shoot will be rising.
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Must have open chokes, shoots a bit high.
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That's what I've always heard you want a shotgun that throws its patterns above point of aim.
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It's a matter of scale... depends on how big that paper is.
Don't forget this is a full choke being tested at 25 yards.
It is indeed difficult to hit with a full choke at that distance.
Even with half the holes displayed (one shot) this pattern if centered on a quail would have feathers in the air for half an hour.
A skeet choke would take the elevation error right out of this.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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I don't see a big problem with it most game you shoot will be rising. Not true. Doves and ducks are passing or overhead shots. JR
Be strong, be of good courage.
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It is impossible to tell for sure from the pic, but I don't think that the patterns shown are only 6" high. It appears to me that the entire upper fringe of the patterns may be completely off the paper. There is precious little pattern, besides fringe, below the point of aim. I would not be surprised, seeing more patterns shot on a larger plate or paper, if it were not shooting 80/20 high, at least 70/30.
Regardless, understanding that the shot drop will help things at long range does not help the situation at close range, where most birds are killed. The only way to properly shoot those patterns at close range is to "float" the bird above the bead, in space. From watching shooters try to do that for years, and trying to do it years ago on wild quail, I can tell you it is a recipe for poor shooting, and a lot of wounded birds. Since the vast majority of shots are taken at 30 yards or less, the better course is to have a gun that shoots no more that 60/40 high, or even flat (50/50), at those distances. My guns shoot flat to 60/40 high and I do not concern myself with shot drop on long shots. If I am "playing" with some really long stuff, 70-80 yards, like the #8 bird on a "Make A Break", I may hold over a tad. That is much easier to do than having to consistently float a bird on close shots. Dedicated trap guns and pigeon guns are a whole 'nuther animal, and are set up to shoot purposely high. Neither should influence how a game gun is set up.
Then, there is the shooter error of lifting the head off the stock slightly. This may be the most common shooter error with a shotgun ......that, and shooting behind. No one should set up a shotgun to accommodate errors, but if a gun is shooting as high as this one is, and the head lifts slightly, you've got a big "0" on the scorecard, or a missed bird, because your load will go even higher.
JMO, based on my experiences.
SRH Could not agree more, Stan. Well stated. JR
Be strong, be of good courage.
God bless America, long live the Republic.
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We are told in the original post that the round white dot aiming point is one inch. Knowing that, all you need to do is hit Ctrl + or Ctrl - to scale that dot in the photo to a ruler or piece of graph paper or the like.
Assuming the greatest concentration of shot is the center of the pattern, it is pretty easy to figure that the center of this particular pattern is about 7 inches above the point of aim at 25 yards. It would be a bit less at 40 yards, but still more than I'd like. So now the problem is how best to correct it.
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Hey! It does say it's a one inch dot. I totally missed that.
At 40 yards when the pattern has 'Bloomed', the vertical 4" remaining is near insignificant.
A high shooting gun also helps you on an incoming overhead shot.... it builds in lead.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Sidelock
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I don't want "help" on establishing lead. I want to know what I put on it, and want it to look like what it is supposed to be, whatever the presentation. Decoyed ducks sure ain't rising. (Unless you shoot the first one sitting, then try for a second  ) Different chokes for different "fokes". SRH
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There is no way I believe that pattern is all on the paper at the top. Lok at the dispersion in the bottom fringe, then look at the upper part of the pattern that is visible on the paper. There is MUCH more density at the top of the paper. My money says there is at least 4" of upper pattern pellets that are above the paper's top edge.
Where would that put the center of the pattern? I'd say more like 9-10" high.
SRH
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Dunno Stan. I'd like to see the 40 yard single shell print.
I don't discount your observations. These discussions are fun.
As far as high elevation shots, even if a gun prints 50/50 that built in lead is still there at high elevation, and on an actual overhead shot, say from 70 degrees to straight up, it's considerable. If the target is incoming, that's not a bad thing at all. Cover, shoot, follow through.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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It's a lot better than a gun that shoots low...
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Two patterns muddy the picture. What if one barrel is high left and the second high right? When combined you think ok its high. If you want to know where a gun shoots it takes a lot of patterns. One shot does not do it. Five might and ten should. Then you have to be shooting it in a normal way. Shooting off sand bags is not going to tell you much unless you intend to shoot off sand bags all the time. I had a dove gun which shot differently in the field than it did on paper. Almost all my shots in the field were from a sitting position while my patterning was done standing up. Different mounting and different poi. Took my awhile to grasp that one.
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Sidelock
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I would rather see individual patterns, too. Even when shooting to check regulation.
SRH
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jOe, you're right about that.
I had a nifty little 20ga field gun that was a low shooter for me.
Even with the knowledge of that fact, barn doors were safe.
I do like the target to be in view, it's the trapshooting roots I suppose. Notwithstanding that, the high incomer may be my favorite target.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Even though I like the pattern printing high I think that particular Model 21 is throwing too much of the load for that specific recipe a little too high. I would say that its throwing possible as much as 80/20 or even 90/10 and I would like it closer to 60/40.
But it could be that shotshell. More testing is needed with that Model 21.
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Guns need to be tested/patterned with the load you're gonna be using in it. If that's the one he uses, that's the one that matters.
For me, anything over 60/40 high is too high. I don't shoot trap, and only a few flyers. When I do shoot flyers I use my MX8 which prints 60/40 high.
SRH
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One thing that pattern tells me, and if I owned that specific Model 21, is I would continue to look for a different recipe. I don't like that pattern. Its just throwing to big of a percentage too high above point of aim.
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If another load, within the realm of reasonable hunting loads, patterned significantly lower I would be astounded.
I would be looking for another fix, or moving it down the road.
SRH
Last edited by Stan; 09/09/16 11:24 PM.
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Bushmaster, how much rib were you looking at with this point of aim ?
What did your sight picture look like ?
Have you tried instinctive shooting that gun ?
O.M
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You need to get the gun out to the clay ranges and shoot. I've had shotguns that for whatever reason shot high on paper, but performed just fine in actual practice when I just cleared my head of it and shot. If your truly shooting over moving targets then either lower the comb, float the birds, or get ready to move on.
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Exactly, he may like the way it shoots and that Model 21 may fit in perfectly for his shooting style.
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I would be curious to know the stock dimensions.
JR
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I have been following this thread with some interest, and I agree with Mr. Roberts' inquiry above, re: stock dimensions.
I have owned a number of 21s of all gauges ever offered by New Haven and never found them to be what I consider "high shooting"
I include several TRAP specific 12 bores most with factory vent ribs , but also a couple of standard matted rib Traps, and never seen a 21 place patterns this high unless after market barrel bending procedures had been undertaken.
It is widely known by double gun trap and pigeon fans that the 21 Traps seldom shoot more than 3 inches high in factory issue condition.
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