doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Paradox cartridge question

I seem to be unable to find any real data on the Paradox cartridges, specifically 12 and 20 bore. The bullet data is not to hard to find but load data seems to be sketchy.

Are the chamber pressures of the Paradox cartridges in the same range as their shotshell cousins? Is there a published source for loading or are folks using slug data?

Thanks.

Found the thread finally. Searching the wrong terms.

Spoke too soon. Not much in the thread.

Ross Seyfried has written some very informative articles in Double Gun Journal and Handloader Magazine. I believe he has a go-to load using Unique with which he is very happy.

Do you happen to know which issue it was or how I can find out. I would like to purchase it as a back issue.

Just an FYI:
I know of 3 shooters who have blown up rifles in the past 12 months. 2 LUCKY ones shooting vintage rifles with modern propellants and 1 shooting a Savage ML (designed for smokeless) with smokeless and lost a hand.
We are fortunate in the USA to have many Black Powder options available to test vintage rifles with.

Dave, did you pick up a Paradox or Explora? One is sort of on my bucket list but I fear the necessary funds will continue to be more rare than the guns. I read the same Seyfried articles but can't tell you which issue.

Neither at this point. Actually it is still sitting on a sale rack minding its own business. I can't tell you for sure because I didn't look much past the tag and kind of a once over. I know the Expora was developed for a different bullet than the Paradox but past that I am kind of sketchy. Both were ball/shot guns IIRC. I have seen some BP loading for the Paradox but even that is somewhat confusing, especially when the listing from WR are approaching 9 drams.

a quick once over on 12 bore paradox guns. All use aprox a 730 gr bullet. The standard H&H load is 1050 fps, explora and magnum H&H load 1200-1250fps, Super magnum explora 1500fps. I owned a super magnum explora for a while. Brutal recoil.......

Brutal I am not into. My .72 DR with 780 grain conicals is more than enough. 730 at about 1050 sounds like it is in the same general class. Is there a modern loading that can safely duplicate that? I have been referred to a back issue of the DGJ but they can be scarce and I don't know which one to start with.
Fortunately Paradox moulds are not hard to come by, at least new manufacture.

The head of ballistics & curator of the East Enterprise Double Rifle Club told me today that Ross's article was years ago. This was well before Swiss and now Olde Eynsford -which seems to be nearly identical to Curtis & Harvey #6.
I have to agree, my percussion double loves it. Haven't tried it yet in my double BPE.

Indeed, I found it the article- Summer 1995.

Thanks!

Many paradoxes were never black powder guns. Holland paradox guns were regulated for a variety of charges and cordite types 28 30 33 36 and 40grains of cordite have been documented.
The unique load developed by Ross is a pretty safe load and will regulate many paradoxes with slight variations even early blackpowder paradoxes. Exploras all were originally regulated with capped bullets at 1250 and a bit of tweeking to get them right
20 bores are rare and if a Westley need a special powder for regulation 425gr bullet at 1500fps

drhall762: The water-table should tell you a lot about the guns original proof - you may well know this.
Also found more paradox articles in DGJ, Winter 2010 & Spring 2015 by Sherman & Ross.
They both agree that a bullet 0.001-0.003" undersized is the key.
Seems H&H introduced the Paradox in 1886 (from Fosbery 1885 patent) and by 1905 Holland was offering 'magnum 12-bore & Long Range Paradox" this seem to be the time H&H went to Cordite.
Interesting a H&H Royal Grade Ejector 12-bore Paradox made in 1895 loading instructions state "3 drams no.6 powder".
You will enjoy all the reading...

Thanks for the info. I was trying to find a master directory or even a yearly one to DGJ back issues but apparently that does not exist. I'll get these ordered if they have some in stock.

Again, thanks.

Actually, the majority of back issues of DGJ are readily available from the publisher!

I got the three ordered but I was trying to find a Master Index to all the articles from the first issue. No telling what treasures are there. Just cost prohibitive to blindly purchase all back issues.

Mr Hall, I'm following in your tracks, trying to develop starter load info for my 12 bore double rifle. The brass cases and bullets (lead with 3 grease grooves) and loading tools were received today.

I received my 3 back issues of DGJ. What a wealth of information there was in just 3 articles on the Paradox and other Bore Rifles. First thing I discovered is that brass cases are not recommended unless the gun was chambered for the thinner brass case. Paper cases like the original Paradox are the recommended case. The issues I purchased were: Summer 1995, Winter 2010 and Spring 2015. There is a part 2 to the Spring 2015 article and as soon as I can confirm when it was published I will order it. My guess would be Summer 2015 but???
There was a good discussion of bullet size and starting loads included.

By the way, I am kind of an old fart and everyone just calls me Dave.

Dave:
Yes, Summer of '15 is part II. Sorry I missed it when I was going thru issues looking -I had them everywhere!

Thanks, I'll get on it.

Graem Wright's book on shooting British double rifles has a chapter on Paradoxes. I have corresponded with him on the guns as I want to make one using screw chokes. Nice fellow, generous with his time and information. He referred me a friend of his that did exactly that using Briley rifled choke tubes. He was getting 4-6" compound groups at 100m. The friend said that the rifled tubes patterned shot almost as well as smooth tubes.

That is food for thought especially for me. I priced a real Paradox. Oh yeah.

This thread motivated me to go out in the garage and cast 25 slugs for my Holland Royal paradox yesterday.

I just finished them this am and will put one through a feral pig shortly