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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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On a whim I have bought a St Etienne 12 ga SxS, double trigger with standard safety on top of the stock. It didn't cost much but I wanted to play. I assumed it was a plain old 1930's French trade gun being billed as a WWII trophy (which it probably was).
It is 12 ga, 65mm (i.e. 2 1/2). There is not an inscribed mark on the gun other that 1) the St. Etienne proof mark, 2) the crown with "PT" beneath it, 3) "rectife" (re choke which doesn't describe what that means), 4) "65" (= chambered for 2 1/2) and 5) "8.3" (?). All parts, receiver, barrel, foreshock are labeled "732." That's it for marks.
The barrels are 27.5" and the bores are absolutely pristine with a lot of metal around them. It seems heavier than the usual French made SxS. (edit: weighs 6 lbs 7.62 oz) It has a pistol grip stock with a curved butt plate that looks to be horn. There is some minimal engraving of screws and around the receiver and on the rear of the barrels.
It was allegedly a WWII war trophy brought back from France and looks like it hasn't been shot in 70 years. The springs are so tense it is difficult to take off the fore grip...or even to break the gun. I will delve into the internals once I'm confident I can take off the back plate screws without breaking the plate.
I'll post some photos later. But here is the Question. A 12 ga choke measure put into the muzzle won't even register. Not even "beyond full choke." And in fact the barrels at the muzzle look almost half-way between 16 and 12 ga. I know that French guns are insanely choked...but this is beyond ridiculous. Larry schooled me on this before I bought it. So now before I get further into the gun, I'm curious about the "8.3" business. I've assumed that "8.4" or "8.5" = a normal 12 ga bore in French shotguns. So what is this "8.3" all about? Is that the source of the choke gauge problem?
Last edited by Argo44; 07/03/16 08:22 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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My 12g. St. Etienne had .715 bores and .033 for a full choke leaving .682 at the muzzle. I doubt a choke tool would be small enough to fit into the muzzle. BTW, it weighs 6 lbs. 10 ounces.
So many guns, so little time!
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Ok, I'm educating myself: Two items I copied a couple of year ago re chokes:
A 12 gauge barrel with no choke restriction at all has an interior dimension of .729 inches in diameter. The following table shows the amount of restriction that is given by applying any of the commonly used chokes:
Cylinder .000 in. Skeet .005 in. Improved Cylinder .010 Modified .020 Full choke .035
Thus to determine which choke you have on the shotgun, simply measure the actual interior diameter, then subtract that figure from .729.
If the actual diameter is .729 in., it is a Cylinder choke. If the actual diameter is .724 in., it is a Skeet choke. If the actual diameter is .719 in., it is an Improved Cylinder choke. If the actual diameter is .709 in., it is a Modified choke. If the actual diameter is .694 in., it is a Full choke.
======== and (European/Brit)
one refers to the choke in a barrel as being true cylinder, improved, quarter, half, three-quarter or full. Gunmakers talk about “points” of choke. They measure shotgun choke relative to the bore diameter (which may vary considerably within any designated bore size rather than at the muzzle alone). One point equates to a constriction of one thousandth of an inch. Below is what one would expect in a 12-bore gun. • True Cylinder 0-1 points • Improved cylinder 3-6 • Quarter (American Improved) 8-12 • Half (American Modified) 17-23 • Three-quarters (Improved Modified) 25-30 • Full 35-40 • Super full 40+
I'll figure it out....so if the bore starts out at 720 rather than a standard 729, I just subtract .009? and maybe I do need one of those bore thingys.. I swore this would not be an obsession... all I need are three shootable SxS's... That's all I need!!!
Last edited by Argo44; 06/23/16 10:00 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Yes, you need three shootable SxS's........ for a start in each gauge, hammer & hammerless..........good luck!
Last edited by builder; 06/23/16 10:15 PM.
So many guns, so little time!
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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You have it, Argo. As you have learned, choke is constriction measured in thousandths, not a muzzle measurement. So, to determine constriction, you must have a bore measurement at the start of the constriction and at the end of the constriction. Muzzle is not necessarily the maximum constriction. You will need a bore gauge if you want to really measure choke constriction.
DDA
Last edited by Rocketman; 06/23/16 10:22 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I will add that this gun is virtually in new-bought condition. There are a few remnants of some sort of loess clay soil in the screw heads on the butt...if this were forensics, I'd bet it was French soil.
As I said it is difficult to break the gun it is so tight. The barrels will not rotate forward on their own. A firm down thrust is needed to close the action especially with shells in the chambers (empty)...there are a few scourings on the internals...nothing more.
There is not an iota of rust. It's as if the gun awoke with Rip Van Winkle having been stored in an air conditioned lock box. The lock is labeled "Wonder" (Where "Helice" normally should be in a St. Etienne gun) and it is so tight you need to brace it against a thigh to open the gun. I haven't a clue who made "Wonder" locks but it looks a lot like a "Helice."
Last edited by Argo44; 06/23/16 10:43 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Well, I'm sure presence of soil and new condition will raise the hackles and harumps of "well, of course it's French: never fired and only thrown down once."
We wait with bated breath for pics of the Lady.
Mike
Tolerance: the abolition of absolutes
Consistency is the currency of credibility
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Sidelock
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Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sounds to me it needs a good strip & clean. Had a similar situation some years ago; sent the gun to Kirk Merrington. This one was so tight you almost couldn't operate the triggers! He measured the tighter bbl. at .054 constriction! As to the tight opening & operation; wot had happened was the vehicle in the grease as originally used had dried over the decades essentially becoming a solid. Removal of that solidified junk and lubricating properly once more was all that was required. I had him open the altogether too tight choke while he had the gun. It too utilized a helice grip lock; I gather that was fairly common on French SxS's once the VC patent expired, from wot few I've seen & earlier discussions here. Hope that you will post some pics for us.
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