doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com St Etienne 12 ga SxS - What's with the barrels?

On a whim I have bought a St Etienne 12 ga SxS, double trigger with standard safety on top of the stock. It didn't cost much but I wanted to play. I assumed it was a plain old 1930's French trade gun being billed as a WWII trophy (which it probably was).

It is 12 ga, 65mm (i.e. 2 1/2). There is not an inscribed mark on the gun other that 1) the St. Etienne proof mark, 2) the crown with "PT" beneath it, 3) "rectife" (re choke which doesn't describe what that means), 4) "65" (= chambered for 2 1/2) and 5) "8.3" (?). All parts, receiver, barrel, foreshock are labeled "732." That's it for marks.

The barrels are 27.5" and the bores are absolutely pristine with a lot of metal around them. It seems heavier than the usual French made SxS. (edit: weighs 6 lbs 7.62 oz) It has a pistol grip stock with a curved butt plate that looks to be horn. There is some minimal engraving of screws and around the receiver and on the rear of the barrels.

It was allegedly a WWII war trophy brought back from France and looks like it hasn't been shot in 70 years. The springs are so tense it is difficult to take off the fore grip...or even to break the gun. I will delve into the internals once I'm confident I can take off the back plate screws without breaking the plate.

I'll post some photos later. But here is the Question. A 12 ga choke measure put into the muzzle won't even register. Not even "beyond full choke." And in fact the barrels at the muzzle look almost half-way between 16 and 12 ga. I know that French guns are insanely choked...but this is beyond ridiculous. Larry schooled me on this before I bought it. So now before I get further into the gun, I'm curious about the "8.3" business. I've assumed that "8.4" or "8.5" = a normal 12 ga bore in French shotguns. So what is this "8.3" all about? Is that the source of the choke gauge problem?

18.3 mm = .720" bore

Keep this up and you've gotta get a bore gauge
http://ronniekey.com/Skeets-Universal-Shotgun-Bore-Gauge-Set-Skeets-Gunsmith-Tools-Supplies

My 12g. St. Etienne had .715 bores and .033 for a full choke leaving .682 at the muzzle. I doubt a choke tool would be small enough to fit into the muzzle.
BTW, it weighs 6 lbs. 10 ounces.

Ok, I'm educating myself: Two items I copied a couple of year ago re chokes:

A 12 gauge barrel with no choke restriction at all has an interior dimension of .729 inches in diameter. The following table shows the amount of restriction that is given by applying any of the commonly used chokes:

Cylinder .000 in.
Skeet .005 in.
Improved Cylinder .010
Modified .020
Full choke .035

Thus to determine which choke you have on the shotgun, simply measure the actual interior diameter, then subtract that figure from .729.

If the actual diameter is .729 in., it is a Cylinder choke.
If the actual diameter is .724 in., it is a Skeet choke.
If the actual diameter is .719 in., it is an Improved Cylinder choke.
If the actual diameter is .709 in., it is a Modified choke.
If the actual diameter is .694 in., it is a Full choke.

======== and (European/Brit)

one refers to the choke in a barrel as being true cylinder, improved, quarter, half, three-quarter or full. Gunmakers talk about �points� of choke. They measure�shotgun choke relative to the bore diameter (which may vary considerably within any designated bore size rather than at the muzzle alone).
One point equates to a constriction of one thousandth of an inch. Below is what one would expect in a 12-bore gun.
� True Cylinder 0-1 points
� Improved cylinder 3-6
� Quarter (American Improved) 8-12
� Half (American Modified) 17-23
� Three-quarters (Improved Modified) 25-30
� Full 35-40
� Super full 40+


I'll figure it out....so if the bore starts out at 720 rather than a standard 729, I just subtract .009? and maybe I do need one of those bore thingys.. I swore this would not be an obsession... all I need are three shootable SxS's... That's all I need!!!

Yes, you need three shootable SxS's........ for a start in each gauge, hammer & hammerless..........good luck!

You have it, Argo. As you have learned, choke is constriction measured in thousandths, not a muzzle measurement. So, to determine constriction, you must have a bore measurement at the start of the constriction and at the end of the constriction. Muzzle is not necessarily the maximum constriction. You will need a bore gauge if you want to really measure choke constriction.

DDA

I will add that this gun is virtually in new-bought condition. There are a few remnants of some sort of loess clay soil in the screw heads on the butt...if this were forensics, I'd bet it was French soil.

As I said it is difficult to break the gun it is so tight. The barrels will not rotate forward on their own. A firm down thrust is needed to close the action especially with shells in the chambers (empty)...there are a few scourings on the internals...nothing more.

There is not an iota of rust. It's as if the gun awoke with Rip Van Winkle having been stored in an air conditioned lock box. The lock is labeled "Wonder" (Where "Helice" normally should be in a St. Etienne gun) and it is so tight you need to brace it against a thigh to open the gun. I haven't a clue who made "Wonder" locks but it looks a lot like a "Helice."

Well, I'm sure presence of soil and new condition will raise the hackles and harumps of "well, of course it's French: never fired and only thrown down once."

We wait with bated breath for pics of the Lady.


Mike

Austerlitz

Sounds to me it needs a good strip & clean. Had a similar situation some years ago; sent the gun to Kirk Merrington. This one was so tight you almost couldn't operate the triggers! He measured the tighter bbl. at .054 constriction! As to the tight opening & operation; wot had happened was the vehicle in the grease as originally used had dried over the decades essentially becoming a solid. Removal of that solidified junk and lubricating properly once more was all that was required. I had him open the altogether too tight choke while he had the gun. It too utilized a helice grip lock; I gather that was fairly common on French SxS's once the VC patent expired, from wot few I've seen & earlier discussions here. Hope that you will post some pics for us.

This guy makes a very affordable gauge for large bores as well (.640-.800). I don't have a good email for him, but you can get in touch with him through trapshooters.com. I can PM you his address if so inclined.

Kenny Helderlein
Oxnard CA

I think you can meassure choke dimensions acurately with a telescopic gauge and a dial (or digital) caliper.
A lot cheaper option than a bore gauge.
With a 0.5-1,0" telescopic gauge you can measure 20, 16, 12 and 10 gauge chokes and the cost of such device is less than $5 dollars.

Best,

Photos of the anonymous St. Etienne proofed 12. (apologize for the quality of the pics-still learning). My understanding of the French gun industry was that virtually every town had its gunsmith who would assemble parts and sell to the well-to-do. Many had no makers marks. This gun was proofed in St. Etienne....where it was actually made is a mystery...nothing to go on except that strange "WONDER" lock and the number 732. It came with what appears to be an original case in crocodile leather...with enough space in the barrel section for a 30" barrel.

The "basket weave" on the stock and fore grip per Larry is typically French (Thanks Larry....learning a lot...and I do like this gun).

That little half grip is also very typically French. The photo of the top lever, with the "stop" on the L side for the lever, makes me think that it might well be made on the old Verney-Carron "Helice" system. The French think highly of those guns. A lot of makers (named and nameless) copied the Helice bolting after the patent expired.

Quite plain, but nice condition! Enjoy it, Argo.

I think you are right about the action, Larry. The front screw in the front wood appears to be a replacement. The barrels/action could have been sourced from Belguim, but, it was definitely proofed in St. Etienne, and it was post 1900.
I highly doubt the case is original to the gun. Cool case, cool gun, but, they simply don't belong together. 18.3, typical 12 gauge size from that part of the world, 65mm chambers. Does not appear to have been proofed in a finished state, likely a small gunmaker produced this one.
I'd invest in a strip and clean from someone like Kirk Merrington, and find out if it fit me and I shot it well. If I did, I'd use it.

Nice hunter shooter.

Best,
Ted

To add to your French gun terminology, the checkering is often referred to as "quadrille Scottish," or something close to that. That also looks very similar to a La Manu horn butt plate. Lastly, the acanthus motif on the fences would be right at home on an Ideal.

Mike

Thanks to the French gun cadre for educating me. I have three shooters in the house this summer....two of which I'm teaching...4 if I count my French Spouse. I only had 2 SxS's, the EM Reilly1898 12 ga hammer gun and my wife's 1905 20 bore Williams Evens. This seemed like a very reasonable way to increase my firepower for three months while I look for a couple of high quality St. Etienne guns. And I do like the way this one feels and swings. Whether I keep it is an open question but I seem to be accumulating a need for more and more.

There is a gunsmith in McLean with a decent reputation. I'm going to talk to him about taking off the butt plate and perhaps doing a thorough cleaning and checking out the gun before it's shot.

Re the case, I think its been with the gun for some time...based on the way the stock/action/triggergard fit in it's compartment...so someone may have modified a case for the gun. The oil soaked part of the channel between the stock compartment and the compartment where I've placed the forestock is a mystery... Perhaps that was for the original gun?

As an example, this group of my VN 5th SFG vets comes to Washington DC for Memorial Day..usually reinforced by a couple of others who couldn't make it this year. (Amazing we can still get in the jungle fatigues tho admittedly the fit is "tight"). This time to vary the agenda, we shot some clays. This is going to be an annual occurrence. I ran out of guns and had to borrow....embarrassing.

(and if you want to know about Vietnam era jungle fatigues...there were three types...
-- Type 1 had the epaulettes and exposed buttons/no rip stop...felt good on the skin; (twin brother on far right).
-- Type 2 had the epaulettes but hidden buttons/no rip stop (me in center + ..noted heart surgeon/former medic on left)
-- Type 3 no epaulettes, hidden buttons, rip stop, fire resistant cloth (The Lt. in the center right) (felt like wearing sand paper at times).

Check out the Rolexes and Montagnard bracelets....Special Forces markers for the era.

Argo, great photos of gun, your buddies and brother. One nice thing about cotton fatigues is that they are moth proof. Those jungle boots appear in good shape as well. The family resemblance of your twin is duly noted.

I was talking with a list member on the phone last week about French guns. The deep relief carving in the acanthus style on the fences seems to be a French standard. I have it on a Brun-Latrige 16 double, but like your gun, very little engraving on the rest of the action where it would seem to be easier to do on the flat surfaces.

Great pic, Argo. thank you very much for your service, and that of your brother and friends.

SRH

Very nice photo, Argo. Thanks for your service . . . in a war whose vets did not receive proper thanks for a very long time. And were often met with scorn when they came home. You're the guys who should have received handshakes, "thanks for your service", "let me buy you a beer or lunch", etc.

I went through Jungle Warfare School in Panama in 1969, courtesy of CIA paramilitary training. Loved those jungle fatigues! Interesting part was, we had jungle fatigues, jungle packs and hammocks etc . . . while an artillery battery on its way to Vietnam had none of those goodies. They wondered who we were, because our jungle fatigues were totally unmarked (not even US Army) and we wore a wide variety of headgear. As it turned out, the military was playing an increasingly large role in Vietnam back then, while earlier on it had been mostly a CIA/Special Operations war. I think only one of my classmates ended up in Vietnam.

Worked with French Foreign Legion in Afghanistan, good guys (they were Frenchmen mostly).

My Father was next to the French Bn in Korea (all French no foreigners allowed) they did good work.

The 732 is either the maker's serial number or a batch number to make sure the parts for each gun stayed together during manufacturing.
The French gunmakers marked the bore diameter in millimeters: roughly 18.1 through 18.3 for 12 ga, 16.9 through 17.1 for 16ga.
I have a similar gun in 16 ga, sans the carved breech balls, plus some remaining case color. It, too, was a war trophy - the seller's late GI father found it in a Norman barn in the summer of '44, liberated it and sent it home, where his dad used it for a few years and then it sat unused and in a place of honor in the vet's living room for over 50 years.
These are great guns, made more to carry a lot and shoot a little. If, as with yours (and mine) the barrels are solid, they're as good as anything out there.

I'm working on a translation of a brief article on the "Helice" locking system because I'm pretty sure that "Wonder" lock is a "Helice" copy. The Verney-Carron lock as Larry has said was created in 1896 as an improvement on the Lefaucheux system itself improved by Webley. But it apparently wasn't patented until 1918 by "Helice," a disciple/employee of Verney-Carron, and didn't expire till 1970. And up until 1918 it was shamelessly copied. If this is correct...then the plain Jane I bought has to be pre 1918 because that patent, once registered was pretty zealously enforced.

Model of the lock:



Verney-Carron with a version of the Helice lock engraved from the 1960 catalogue.



Other versions of the lock:





I'll be looking over the shoulder of my gunsmith to confirm my suspicions.

Oh and by the way, my two sons are dual French/American citizens. They spent most of their years in school abroad. But in High School here they were sometimes harassed because of their French ancestry. (Ok, we know High Schools and you'll be picked on if you row for the crew team ..."row row row your boat"...etc.) Fortunately they knew how to take care of business and stop that stuff cold. But it wasn't pleasant.

Lest there be any doubt, as I have been quoted twice, I was being sarcastic (thus the employment of quotation marks). I get more than my share of grief from friends and others about my love of many things French in general, and French guns in particular. I can't count the times I have endured the "unfired and only thrown down once" jibe.

Mike

Mike, no problem and I knew your humanity and sympathies. I was just making a point for others. That's why I said "Austerlitz" and could go on to mention "Verdun" and "LaFayette."

"Worked with French Foreign Legion in Afghanistan, good guys (they were Frenchmen mostly)."

French worked in Kabul Province...E. of the city down to the dam and up into the Uzbin Valley. Not a good place. They lost 14 people in an ambush in 2011? They are all over the Sahel now fighting ISIS even if Francois Hollande is a nerd's nerd.

And I remember the Libyan claim of the Ouzo strip and their occupation of N. Chad. My wife and I landed in N'Djamena (Fort Lamy) in 1981 on an Air Afrique plane going to Brazzaville...it taxied to the dusty terminal. made a U-turn and ran for the runway. Libyan armored cars appeared on each side of the plane. It stopped. Someone in 1st class was taken off. Well...it was Africa...Angola going on..the Savimbi revolt against the MPLA...Soviet transports on the long haul...60,000 Cuban troops..South Africans. Somehow the world is less interesting since the Wall fell.

Mike, being a "boomer", I recall the little "ditty" sung to the tune of "Whistle While You Work", with lyrics about Hitler and Mussolini. I have not heard the above about French guns, but about Italian weapons of WWII. That and the tanks having 1 forward and 4 reverse speeds. Gil
As for the V-C lever types, here's an expired patent version (I reckon) on a 16 ga. Brun-Latrige.

I have a 1922 V-C catalog with the same drawing of the Helice system. Somewhere--although I can't find it now--I remember reading that V-C had brought suit against one or two other gunmakers who had copied the Helice system. According to the 1922 catalog, the patent on the Helice system dates from 1907.

As far as I know, "Helice" isn't the name of a V-C employee who developed the locking mechanism, but is simply a descriptive term for it. It's the French word for screw or spiral. Webley already had a "screw grip" bolting system in place by that time, but it's clear from the drawing that the Helice system is a somewhat modified version of the same concept.

The 1922 catalog is also the one that includes a full page photo of French ace of aces (and surviving ace of aces of all nations from WWI) Rene Fonck, in which he praises his Helice Grip shotgun. "The birds fall like Krauts!" Great ad!

That little swell on the left side of the receiver, into which fits the concavity on the left side of the toplever, is a great place to get a really painful pinch of one's finger or palm. The return spring is pretty darn strong, so it will snap quick and tight if you let it. The swell also functions as a great stop for the toplever's travel.

The word/action "HELICE" was never patented...it was a generic term.

Neltir is poster on a French double gun website. He was employed for many years in St Etienne gun business and retired in 2007. He posted this post on the website explaining to French shooters what the meaning of Helice is.

http://www.passionlachasse.com/t17209-fusil-helice

I will paraphrase what he said and will enter the entire translation if needed.
Helice is just a helix screw, a method of locking a center-break gun. Helice locks were used from the beginning in center break guns but especially in under-lever guns



With the invention of the box lock and side lock and more powerful powder, additional locks were needed. In 1894 Webley came up with a triple lock system and moved the locking lever on top of the breech, aesthetically a master stroke.

Verny Carron in St. Etienne took this idea, simplified it and added a fourth lock. VC patented this in 1896 using the variants of Helice...including he name HELICOBLOC or HELISTOP and HELICE-GRIPP. However the name HELICE was never patented by anyone,..it was generic.

Because of the popularity of the Webley and VC locks, everyone piled in and began using the word �HELICE � on their release lever, usually stamped and in raised letters, often combined with the name of the gun maker or the initials and some form of word added to HELICE to make it a compound name.

He added: "It is well known that only one single long gun (ed: a complete gun, not an action) was patented under the mark �HELICE"; I was the long gun fabricated by Marcel Philippon. And following that a multitude of arms makers baptized their actions using a prefix HELICE (and variants) while adding their names or initials onto the breech combining it with HELICE."

He then attached this list of various names used by French gun-makers employing the word HELICE taken from a book by Maurice Forisier, which was given to him by his old workmates/collegues from the armorie school when he retired in 2007 (list looks incomplete since is appears to include only St Etienne armorers..others seemed to have joined in the Heli naming and etching craze).



So per Neltir, my WONDER lock can�t be dated based on Verny Carron patents. Voila.

That little swell?

Looks like a Verney Carron...according to the chart above. Correct? (just checking). (but per the chart VC patented "HELICE-GRIP"...not the double "P"...)

Argo, you're confusing the patent of the name vs patent of the action. In other words, no one could make a gun, mark it "Helice" . . . AND use the patented V-C system. V-C made that point in their own catalogs, pointing out that guns marked "Helice" that were not made by V-C didn't use their bolting system.

Larry, I think what Neltir was saying was that there is not a particular lock named "Helice" and that they all are variants on a theme.."Helice" is generic meaning "Helical." The only patented ones were the Verney Carron quadrouple lock and it wasn't labeled "Helice" but rather Helicobloc, etc, a trade name he created. i.e. once one figured out that by manipulating a helix by a lever...you could add locking devices all down the barrel activated by that lever..all sorts of things were possible. Then everyone jumped in using a fashionable variant of the word "HELICE" (helical) because that was what everyone used...and it was prominently engraved on the break lever to give it an air of solidity. Thus "HELICE" was a only generic name for a helical screw action..sort of like "ORGANIC" today..i.e. you could have put that label on any old under-lever shotgun from the 19th century.....and by itself it has no trade meaning.



Here is a translation of his post just for the record - the translation is not literal but I've tried to make it in understandable English so it catches the sense of the original.

Bonsoir a tous , je me permet d'intervenir sur ce post que j'ai parcouru avec beaucoup d'attention et de ....rires parfois !

Good morning everybody. Permit me to intrude in this thread that I have followed with great interest and with�.uproarious laughter

Deja je vais me permettre de dire rendons a H�lice ce qui est a lui !!!

Please permit me to relate what exactly is a Helice

En effet ,j'ai lu que Verney Carron �tait l'inventeur du fusil H�lice ::: que le fusil h�lice �tait une marque de fusils lisses :::: que h�lice �tait ��

I have read that Verney Carron was the inventor of the �Helice gun,� that Helice was a maker of long arms�.that Helice was...whatever�.

Et bien d�ja je vais vous dire une chose , c'est que H�lice est un syst�me de fermeture d'une arme basculante . Ensuite que les premieres fermetures des armes a bascules �taient r�alis�es au moyen d'un verrou pivotant a h�lice ...d'ou le fameux h�lice qui vous fait raconter tout et n'importe quoi !!!Excusez moi si j' y vais un peu fort,mais je pense que si Casimir Lefaucheux lisait ce post il deviendrait ....fou de rage !!! qui n'a jamais vu son grand p�re ou son voisin articuler le fameux levier sous la longuesse du vieux fusil a broche ����:::le levier qui commandait le verrou "HELICE " ,ce fameux h�lice !!!

Well I am going to tell you all a few things; first that Helice is a closing system for a center-break long arm. The first closing system for center-break long arms was a lock pivoting on a helix screw; That�s the famous Helice which you all have been saying whatever about. Excuse me if I am speaking a little strongly, but I think that if Casimir Lefaucheux were reading these posts he would become crazy with rage. Who has not seen one�s Grandfather or one�s neighbor manipulate the famous lever under the fore-stock of an old pin-fire rifle? The lever which controlled the �HELICE� (helical) lock, that�s the famous helice!!

Ensuite ce fameux syst�me dit "H�lice" grace au progr�s r�alis� sur les Hammerless notament fut transpos� si je puis dire sur le haut du boitier de culasse sous forme d'une clef qu e vous avez tous manipul�s ,ceci a cause de l'adoption de diff�rents verrous horizontaux et verticaux afin de reporter ces verrous plus loinde l'axe de bascule afin d'avoir une plus grande r�sistance a la pression , ceci encore a cause des adoptions de nouvelles poudres plus puissantes .

The famous system called �Helice,� thanks to progress on the �hammerless� system, was moved onto the top of the breech in the form of a key which you have all used. This was because of the adoption of different horizontal and vertical locks in order to move these locks further from the axis of the break in order to achieve a greater resistance to pressure, a need caused by the adoption of new more powerful powders.

Il en reste n�anmoins que le syst�me h�lice restait appliqu� parce que la fameuse clef par son mouvement lat�ral circulaire poussait un m�canisme semblable a l'ancien levier de dessous de longuesse des temps anciens (dits anciens ) et verrouillait le basculement et de l� naquis l'id�e de verrous multiples possibles sur divers points afin de renforcer la r�sistance au d�part du coup de feu :

The helices (helical) closing system remained up-to-date because of that famous key, which by its lateral circular movement pushed a mechanism similar to the old under-lever along the fore-stock of olden days, locking the break. Thus was born the idea of multiple possible locks at different points in order to reinforce the ability of the gun to fire heavier cartridges.

Et alors ? et bien c'est monsieur Webley qui en 1894 mis au point un syst�me a triple verrou ,syst�me qui dure encore de nos jours sur beaucoup de fusils de chasse ....et m�me sur les canons de tr�s fort calibre militaires !!!! :un d�bordement de la t�te de clef agit directement par friction et par pression sur une encoche a forme de gradin,taill�e en saillie dans le prolongement de la bande des canon et qui passe a l'ouverture et la fermeture sous la t�te de clef !

It was Mr. Webley who in 1894 created a system of triple locks, a system which continues to be used to this day on many shotguns and even on barrels of very strong military calibers. An overthrust of the head of the key acted directly by friction and pressure on a notch in the shape of a step, cut and projecting in the prolongation of the band of the barrels, which passed on opening and closing under the head of the key.

ET alors ? Verney Carron? et bien lui il a simplement modifi� ce g�nial syst�me HELICE a triple verrou de Webley en syst�me encore plus fiable a quadruple verrou dit H�licobloc de Verney Carron en d�posant un brevet en 1896 ! Jamais le syst�me H�lice n'a �t� brevet� , mais largement frapp� et �voqu� sur les boitiers en y accolant parfois les initiales du constructeur de l'arme !

Verney Carron? well, all he did was simply modify the triple lock HELICE system of Webley to a system still more reliable with quadruple locks called HELICOBLOC on which Verney Carron took out a patent in 1896! The actual Helice system was never patented, but for the most part the (generic) word was engraved and raised up on the breech of the gun, often including the initials of the builder of the gun.

Alors SVP ne dites pas que Verney Carron a invent� le H�lice ceci cela ! le syst�me de fermeture Dit H�lice existait d�ja depuis ..... 100 ans !avec la venue au monde du fusil a bascule !!!! et que le syst�me du double verrouillage trouva sa naissance vers 1880 et la combinaison de cette fameuse clef de dessus de boitier appel�e CLE TOP LEVER par le fameux Webley ,permit d'all�ger consid�rablement l'est�thique du fusil car dot�e de son verrou coulissant sous les planches de bascule en employant le fameux syst�me de fermeture HELICE !

So please don�t say that Verney Carron invented the Helice. The helical system of closing the breech called Helice already existed for 100 years since the brith of the center break long gun. A system of double locking was born around 1880, and the combination of that famous key above the breech called the �TOP LEVER KEY� by Webley, permitted the esthetic of the long gun to be considerably improved by being equipped with his sliding lock using the famous HELICE closing system.

Et alors ? et bien sachez qu'un seul fusil fut brevet� sous la marque HELICE ,c'est le fusil fabriqu� par Marcel Philippon et qu'ensuite une "Foultitude "de fabriquants d'armes baptis�rent leur arme a l'aide d'un pr�fixe HELICE et arborant parfois sur leurs boitiers le fameux HELICE . D'ailleurs en voici une liste prise sur un livre de Maurice Forissier ,livre qui m'avait �t� offert par mes anciens coll�gues d'�cole d'armurerie lors de mon d�part en retraite en 2007 .

It is well known that only one single long gun was patented under the mark �HELICE; I was the long gun fabricated by Marcek Philippon. And following that a multitude of arms makers baptized their gun with the aid of a prefix HELICE while adding their names or initials onto the breech or combining it with HELICE. Below is a list (of various uses of HELICE combined with names of gun makers) taken from a book by Maurice Forissier, which was given to me by my old workmates/collegues from the armorie school when I retired in 2007.

(Note: it wasn't clear to me whether this list was of patents taken out using variants of the word Helice or just listing the many guns which used the word (there are three patent names in the list). Whatever, it's doubtful I can date my plain St Etienne gun because of the "Wonder" helical lock unless I can find who made it). PS. I don't think Niltir much liked VC.

Welcome corrections to my understanding of Neltir's post...and by the way he has a great explanation on the term 'Acier" (steel) and it's variations as found stamped on French shotguns that I'll translate...explains a lot.

While one development in the shotgun world often leads to subsequent developments, patents don't work that way. Enough "tweaking" of something invented by someone else and voila! You have a new patent.

Argo, I'll quote to you from a letter I received from M. Claude Verney-Carron, president of the company, in 2002--responding to an article on French shotguns that I wrote for Shooting Sportsman:

"Helice was the name of the locking system patented by my great grandfather Jean Verney-Carron at the beginning of the 20th century. When the patent expired and fell in the public field a lot of gunmakers from St. Etienne adopted the system for their own use. That's why you can find a lot of brands derived from the word Helice. Verney-Carron used the following ones: Helice Grip, Helice 33, Helistop, Helicobloc, Heliduplex."

(I owned an Helice 33. Introduced in 1933--hence the 33--it was innovative in that it used coil rather than flat springs.)

Thanks Larry...but I'm not sure his patents were filed under the actual name "Helice." A number of web sites in France say this. Here is one comment by JP2,

"Pour ma part j'ai bien dit qu'ill ne fallait pas confondre le system "Heliobloc," qui est bien un brevet VC qui est bien enregistr�e en tant que telle et la Marque Helice Il est vrai qa'un grand nombre de fabrications se sont pr�value de la "fermeture h�lice" qui par ailleurs n'est pas une appellation d�pos�e."

"As for me I have said repeatedly that one must not confuse the system "Helicobloc," which was patented by Verney Carron and registered as such and the (engraved) mark "Helice." It's well known that a great number of gun makers have availed themselves of the (have used the) "closing system 'helice' " which in any event was not a registered name."

VC definitely patented a Helice quadruple lock system. However, per the French web-sites the actual word "helice," was not on the patent which allowed many others to use it in many ways.

Right, I understand that "Helice" isn't patented. But your French quote above does refer to "the system Helicobloc, which is a VC patent and which is registered as such . . . " Which means that a gun marked "Helice" could not have used the VC-patented system, until the patent expired--although they could have slipped through with some variant. Too bad M. Verney-Carron didn't say when the patent expired. But there are bunches of Helice-marked guns floating around (or some derivation of Helice that does not include one of the several names VC apparently copyrighted), and they all tend to be pretty highly regarded as good, solid firearms--even if a maker can't be identified (which it can't, on most of them).

Got it Larry...So we really don't know what's in a French gun labeled "Helice" or variants before the VC patent expired...it could be just about anything (well-that's an exaggeration of course). (And it looks like VC redid the patent several times under a different name to extend it).

This plain jane anonymous gun weighs 6 lbs, 7.62 oz, and the more it loosens up the more I like it. I haven't shot it yet-the gunsmith will be looking at it next week - but that's what it's for...to shoot, not to collect. It a neat, sweet swinging, beautifully pointing gun and has whetted my appetite for a collectable Manufrance or some other St. Etienne classic.

And, I've a sneaking suspicion this is a VC Helicobloc copy-infringement just labeled "Wonder." There is a forth lock in the fore-grip. I don't know how I can date it though. I'll let you know.

Noted Heart surgeon Lonny (Louis) Holmes - VN Special Forces medic at Plei Djerang A-Camp then Kontum Mike Force 1968 -- also 3 years in Thailand, shooting the EM Reilly hammer gun during Memorial Day (why I needed a 3rd SxS) (he's a lot more comfortable with pistols than shotguns and has some amazing matched pairs). Check out the Gold Rolex. The gold Submariner sold in Bangkok for $430 in 1966. One of our guys had one, got hit in the left wrist out at Lac Thien (A-236) in Fall 1966...everybody was cursing...not about him but because we thought the 7.62-39 had wasted the watch. Turned out he didn't have it on. I don't want to guess what that thing is worth now - easily the price of a Boss?.

Dating French guns is really hard, because unlike almost all the other major gunmaking nations, their proofmarks never included a date code. I've read of a few guys who've found a date under the buttplate. Even V-C, back when I had my Helice 33, couldn't give me an exact date based on serial number. Seems they'd lost a lot of their records somewhere along the line. But they were kind enough to send me pages from their catalog describing the gun, which helped a lot. Unfortunately, you can't write to "Wonder" for that kind of assistance. But that's also true on a whole lot of "mystery" French doubles.

What you will find on quite a few otherwise nameless French guns, on the underside of the barrels, is the name of the barrelmaker. Breuil and Fanget are a couple of very common ones. But I don't see a barrelmaker's name on the underside of your barrels either.

That one.
Get your palm over that when it snaps shut and, well, you get it.

I keep bothering you guys. I assume the four ghosts or banana peels or breaking waves or silk worms (Lyon area was the origin of the French silk industry)... is just decoration. I've seen various decorative inscribing on the bottom of locks on other French guns.



This from Skeetz's Manufrance Ideal.

Well, not to bore anyone or to bring back a dead line (though there are some very good points made in this line)...but the "Wonder" lock on my anonymous "Artisanal" 12 gauge fusil de chasse war trophy has been bothering me for months. I think I've solved it as follows - take a look; welcome clarifications/observations.

Here is another French shotgun with "Wonder" on the Key - so mine is not alone:







http://www.passionlachasse.com/t27300-fusil-wonder

Here is another ad on Naturabuy.fr which seems to indicate �Wonder� is on the gun�(poorly written in French).
vend fusil de chasse qui appartenait a mon beau pere la marque et un metal st chamond� special� canon wonder� les 2tubes sont lises� la crose et en bois
(for sale shotgun owned by my father-in-law. The name in the metal - St Chamond special barrel wonder. the two tubes are smoothbores. the stock is wood.)
photo:



http://www.naturabuy.fr/fusil-chasse-item-2996025.html

I now think these guns were made or were made for a well-known manufacturer of bicycles and motorcycles in Saint-�tienne named �Ravat.� Ravat was founded in 1898 and in 1910 came out with a famous bicycle christened �Wonder.� It won numerous races in Europe. Ravat-Wonder was an important company, manufacturing, like many companies in Saint-�tienne, sewing machines, etc. During the 1920�s it employed more than 1,000 workers and produced 80,000 bicycles and motorcycles per year�mostly under the names �Ravat� and �Wonder.�

Publicity/badges for Cycle �Wonder� (you'll note the earlier font for "Wonder" in the ads is pretty close to the font use on the key of my plain Jane..The later font had an upturned leg o the "R"....doesn't prove squat of course...just an observation )







I haven�t been able to find definitive evidence that Ravat made guns�but heck, just about everyone else in Saint-Etienne made both guns and bicycles -- Peugeot, Rivollier, Verney-Carron, Manufrance, for example -- so until proven otherwise, I�m assuming my anonymous 12 gauge was made for Ravat-Wonder. And by the way that gun shoots beautifully and I still have it - my cheap increase in firepower paid off; it's doing what I hoped it would do...kill clays.

Well . . . seems to be too old to be associated with Little Stevie Wonder. And probably not with Wonder Woman either!

Interesting that they use an English word. Anything starting with W in French is a foreign word. But "wonder" does not appear in either my French-French (Larousse) or my French-English dictionaries.

There was Wonder bread...but it can't compete with a baguette. And woof woof = ouaf ouaf in French. Anyway, Wonder can't have sold a lot of them....the SN on mine is 732...on the engraved model above 570. So the output appears to have been in the hundreds rather than thousands.

Here's an interesting article on why arms makers began to make bicycles in Saint-Etienne:

http://books.openedition.org/editionsmsh/3747?lang=en

H�ritages industriels et d�terminations objectives

4Par-del� l�action personnelle de pionniers comme Pierre Gauthier constructeur de la premi�re bicyclette fran�aise en 1886 ou Paul de Vivie ap�tre du cyclotourisme plus connu sous le pseudonyme de V�locio, et donc par-del� une explication possible en termes d�acteurs, la r�ussite de l�industrie st�phanoise du cycle � plus tardivement introduite ici qu�en d�autres villes � repose avant tout sur l�existence d�une structure industrielle favorable � la diffusion de l�innovation.

L�importance de l�armurerie dans la filiation technique

5A une �poque o� la machine n�avait pas encore remplac� la plupart des fa�ons manuelles, le r�servoir d�ouvriers exp�riment�s, form�s par l�exercice des multiples m�tiers du fer et de l�acier, a notoirement contribu� au d�veloppement de l�industrie naissante du cycle. Soit qu�il lui ait donn� ses premiers chefs d�entreprise, tels les armuriers Auguste Dombret ou Dombret A�n�, le m�canicien Louis Chavanet, le quincaillier Claudius Gros... Soit qu�il lui ait fourni des savoir-faire et une m�moire technique aptes � g�n�rer nombre d�applications d�riv�es et novatrices, du forgeage des axes de p�dalier � partir d�axes cylindro-coniques semblables � ceux que Louis Chavanet avait vu utiliser par un forgeur de la vall�e du Furan pour tirer des branches de tricoises au martinet, � l�emploi par Albert Raimond du principe de la rampe h�lico�dale entra�nant les chargeurs de mitrailleuse pour d�placer le pignon conducteur de son fameux changement de vitesse � le Cyclo �...

1 C�est en 1921, apr�s l�installation de la MFAC dans ses nouveaux b�timents de la rue Lassaigne, qu (...)
6Mais, si toutes les branches de la m�tallurgie st�phanoise ont leur part dans la r�ussite de l�industrie du cycle, y compris les aci�ries, forges et fonderies lui fournissant produits bruts � transformer ou pi�ces � usiner, l�armurerie a pour elle de constituer une activit� saisonni�re, relativement compl�mentaire de l�activit� du cycle. En effet, alors que le fusil se vend surtout de juin � octobre, la demande de bicyclette se manifeste de f�vrier jusqu�� ao�t. Ce qui explique que nombre de fabricants d�armes se soient pr�cocement �tablis fabricants de cycles (de la Soci�t� manufacturi�re d�armes et cycles de Saint-Etienne aux Ets Berger ou Rivollier... en passant bien s�r par la Manufacture d�armes et cycles de Saint-Etienne) sans avoir � sp�cialiser des ateliers1 o� tours et fraiseuses servent indiff�remment � l�usinage des pi�ces de l�arme et de la bicyclette.

2 A la MFAC, les fabrications dont on revendique la pr�cision sont test�es sur route et font l�objet (...)
7Et ces relations privil�gi�es tiss�es entre l�armurerie et l�industrie du cycle par les ph�nom�nes de continuit� technique et de compl�mentarit� saisonni�re, vont elles-m�mes susciter des pratiques similaires ou communes qui se retrouvent : au plan de l�organisation structurelle de branche (extr�me division du travail inductrice d�une exceptionnelle sp�cialisation dans la fabrication des pi�ces d�tach�es : panoplie compl�te des types d�unit� de production depuis le limeur de cadres � en fen�tres � jusqu�� l�usine en passant par l�atelier familial ou le d�corateur ambulant... ; adjonction d�activit�s compl�mentaires : machines � coudre, �cr�meuses, pi�ces pour automobiles...) ; au plan de l�orientation commerciale et publicitaire (accent mis sur la qualit� de la production, prouv�e par l�application de syst�mes de contr�le rappelant le Banc d��preuve des armes2) ; au plan des localisations spatiales (juxtaposition des ateliers dans les arri�re-cours des quartiers armuriers de Villeb�uf et Saint-Roch avec cependant une extension du cycle vers le sud en direction de la plaine de Champagne) ; et m�me au plan de l�unit� patronale (dans les premi�res ann�es de cr�ation de la Chambre syndicale du cycle, partage les frais de location et de conciergerie avec la Chambre syndicale des armuriers ; banquets annuels communs ; ententes lors des �lections � la Chambre de commerce...). Ce qui ne signifie pas pour autant que l�on puisse isoler l�histoire de l�industrie du cycle de cette autre composante fondamentale de l�identit� st�phanoise qu�est l�industrie du ruban.

Since the above photos are masked, I'll post a few of the Wonder Fusil de Chasse photos here in case another Wonder wonderer wanders this way.

Salut Argo,
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/334262904453


"Wonder" marque déposée par René Cosson.

Merci Fab. J'ai toujours été curieux de connaître cette marque de fusil de chasse. C'est intéressant de savoir qu'il y en a d'autres. je croyais qu'elle a été fabriquée par Ravat mais rien n'est sûr. René Cosson, Paris? Bonne année. Gene Williams

Fab writes that the name "Wonder" was trademarked by René Cosson, Paris. The firm was founded in 1878 but apparently had its origins in the Middle Ages.



It apparently imported/sold the usual things fabricated by Armuriers at the time including sewing machines ("Original Victoria" being made in Germany - but the girl is obviously French and adorable):



Cosson was listed as an exporter of ammunition in the 1967 Foreign Commerce Weekly:



These Catalogs are from 1955 - 1979. I can't find much more about the firm. I thought my Wonder was older than the 1950's but those catalog entries are compelling.



Note the checkering (quadrillé) allegedly done in Paris.



Re "grand devant à capuche" - I never quite got a good definition of "capuche" (normally meaning "hood" as in a hood for a jacket) - I believe it has something to do with a Deeley push-button release mechanism (pompe) for the forend (devant).