doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com St Etienne 12 ga SxS - What's with the barrels?

Thanks Larry...but I'm not sure his patents were filed under the actual name "Helice." A number of web sites in France say this. Here is one comment by JP2,

"Pour ma part j'ai bien dit qu'ill ne fallait pas confondre le system "Heliobloc," qui est bien un brevet VC qui est bien enregistr�e en tant que telle et la Marque Helice Il est vrai qa'un grand nombre de fabrications se sont pr�value de la "fermeture h�lice" qui par ailleurs n'est pas une appellation d�pos�e."

"As for me I have said repeatedly that one must not confuse the system "Helicobloc," which was patented by Verney Carron and registered as such and the (engraved) mark "Helice." It's well known that a great number of gun makers have availed themselves of the (have used the) "closing system 'helice' " which in any event was not a registered name."

VC definitely patented a Helice quadruple lock system. However, per the French web-sites the actual word "helice," was not on the patent which allowed many others to use it in many ways.

Right, I understand that "Helice" isn't patented. But your French quote above does refer to "the system Helicobloc, which is a VC patent and which is registered as such . . . " Which means that a gun marked "Helice" could not have used the VC-patented system, until the patent expired--although they could have slipped through with some variant. Too bad M. Verney-Carron didn't say when the patent expired. But there are bunches of Helice-marked guns floating around (or some derivation of Helice that does not include one of the several names VC apparently copyrighted), and they all tend to be pretty highly regarded as good, solid firearms--even if a maker can't be identified (which it can't, on most of them).

Got it Larry...So we really don't know what's in a French gun labeled "Helice" or variants before the VC patent expired...it could be just about anything (well-that's an exaggeration of course). (And it looks like VC redid the patent several times under a different name to extend it).

This plain jane anonymous gun weighs 6 lbs, 7.62 oz, and the more it loosens up the more I like it. I haven't shot it yet-the gunsmith will be looking at it next week - but that's what it's for...to shoot, not to collect. It a neat, sweet swinging, beautifully pointing gun and has whetted my appetite for a collectable Manufrance or some other St. Etienne classic.

And, I've a sneaking suspicion this is a VC Helicobloc copy-infringement just labeled "Wonder." There is a forth lock in the fore-grip. I don't know how I can date it though. I'll let you know.

Noted Heart surgeon Lonny (Louis) Holmes - VN Special Forces medic at Plei Djerang A-Camp then Kontum Mike Force 1968 -- also 3 years in Thailand, shooting the EM Reilly hammer gun during Memorial Day (why I needed a 3rd SxS) (he's a lot more comfortable with pistols than shotguns and has some amazing matched pairs). Check out the Gold Rolex. The gold Submariner sold in Bangkok for $430 in 1966. One of our guys had one, got hit in the left wrist out at Lac Thien (A-236) in Fall 1966...everybody was cursing...not about him but because we thought the 7.62-39 had wasted the watch. Turned out he didn't have it on. I don't want to guess what that thing is worth now - easily the price of a Boss?.

Dating French guns is really hard, because unlike almost all the other major gunmaking nations, their proofmarks never included a date code. I've read of a few guys who've found a date under the buttplate. Even V-C, back when I had my Helice 33, couldn't give me an exact date based on serial number. Seems they'd lost a lot of their records somewhere along the line. But they were kind enough to send me pages from their catalog describing the gun, which helped a lot. Unfortunately, you can't write to "Wonder" for that kind of assistance. But that's also true on a whole lot of "mystery" French doubles.

What you will find on quite a few otherwise nameless French guns, on the underside of the barrels, is the name of the barrelmaker. Breuil and Fanget are a couple of very common ones. But I don't see a barrelmaker's name on the underside of your barrels either.

That one.
Get your palm over that when it snaps shut and, well, you get it.

I keep bothering you guys. I assume the four ghosts or banana peels or breaking waves or silk worms (Lyon area was the origin of the French silk industry)... is just decoration. I've seen various decorative inscribing on the bottom of locks on other French guns.



This from Skeetz's Manufrance Ideal.

Well, not to bore anyone or to bring back a dead line (though there are some very good points made in this line)...but the "Wonder" lock on my anonymous "Artisanal" 12 gauge fusil de chasse war trophy has been bothering me for months. I think I've solved it as follows - take a look; welcome clarifications/observations.

Here is another French shotgun with "Wonder" on the Key - so mine is not alone:







http://www.passionlachasse.com/t27300-fusil-wonder

Here is another ad on Naturabuy.fr which seems to indicate �Wonder� is on the gun�(poorly written in French).
vend fusil de chasse qui appartenait a mon beau pere la marque et un metal st chamond� special� canon wonder� les 2tubes sont lises� la crose et en bois
(for sale shotgun owned by my father-in-law. The name in the metal - St Chamond special barrel wonder. the two tubes are smoothbores. the stock is wood.)
photo:



http://www.naturabuy.fr/fusil-chasse-item-2996025.html

I now think these guns were made or were made for a well-known manufacturer of bicycles and motorcycles in Saint-�tienne named �Ravat.� Ravat was founded in 1898 and in 1910 came out with a famous bicycle christened �Wonder.� It won numerous races in Europe. Ravat-Wonder was an important company, manufacturing, like many companies in Saint-�tienne, sewing machines, etc. During the 1920�s it employed more than 1,000 workers and produced 80,000 bicycles and motorcycles per year�mostly under the names �Ravat� and �Wonder.�

Publicity/badges for Cycle �Wonder� (you'll note the earlier font for "Wonder" in the ads is pretty close to the font use on the key of my plain Jane..The later font had an upturned leg o the "R"....doesn't prove squat of course...just an observation )







I haven�t been able to find definitive evidence that Ravat made guns�but heck, just about everyone else in Saint-Etienne made both guns and bicycles -- Peugeot, Rivollier, Verney-Carron, Manufrance, for example -- so until proven otherwise, I�m assuming my anonymous 12 gauge was made for Ravat-Wonder. And by the way that gun shoots beautifully and I still have it - my cheap increase in firepower paid off; it's doing what I hoped it would do...kill clays.

Well . . . seems to be too old to be associated with Little Stevie Wonder. And probably not with Wonder Woman either!

Interesting that they use an English word. Anything starting with W in French is a foreign word. But "wonder" does not appear in either my French-French (Larousse) or my French-English dictionaries.

There was Wonder bread...but it can't compete with a baguette. And woof woof = ouaf ouaf in French. Anyway, Wonder can't have sold a lot of them....the SN on mine is 732...on the engraved model above 570. So the output appears to have been in the hundreds rather than thousands.

Here's an interesting article on why arms makers began to make bicycles in Saint-Etienne:

http://books.openedition.org/editionsmsh/3747?lang=en

H�ritages industriels et d�terminations objectives

4Par-del� l�action personnelle de pionniers comme Pierre Gauthier constructeur de la premi�re bicyclette fran�aise en 1886 ou Paul de Vivie ap�tre du cyclotourisme plus connu sous le pseudonyme de V�locio, et donc par-del� une explication possible en termes d�acteurs, la r�ussite de l�industrie st�phanoise du cycle � plus tardivement introduite ici qu�en d�autres villes � repose avant tout sur l�existence d�une structure industrielle favorable � la diffusion de l�innovation.

L�importance de l�armurerie dans la filiation technique

5A une �poque o� la machine n�avait pas encore remplac� la plupart des fa�ons manuelles, le r�servoir d�ouvriers exp�riment�s, form�s par l�exercice des multiples m�tiers du fer et de l�acier, a notoirement contribu� au d�veloppement de l�industrie naissante du cycle. Soit qu�il lui ait donn� ses premiers chefs d�entreprise, tels les armuriers Auguste Dombret ou Dombret A�n�, le m�canicien Louis Chavanet, le quincaillier Claudius Gros... Soit qu�il lui ait fourni des savoir-faire et une m�moire technique aptes � g�n�rer nombre d�applications d�riv�es et novatrices, du forgeage des axes de p�dalier � partir d�axes cylindro-coniques semblables � ceux que Louis Chavanet avait vu utiliser par un forgeur de la vall�e du Furan pour tirer des branches de tricoises au martinet, � l�emploi par Albert Raimond du principe de la rampe h�lico�dale entra�nant les chargeurs de mitrailleuse pour d�placer le pignon conducteur de son fameux changement de vitesse � le Cyclo �...

1 C�est en 1921, apr�s l�installation de la MFAC dans ses nouveaux b�timents de la rue Lassaigne, qu (...)
6Mais, si toutes les branches de la m�tallurgie st�phanoise ont leur part dans la r�ussite de l�industrie du cycle, y compris les aci�ries, forges et fonderies lui fournissant produits bruts � transformer ou pi�ces � usiner, l�armurerie a pour elle de constituer une activit� saisonni�re, relativement compl�mentaire de l�activit� du cycle. En effet, alors que le fusil se vend surtout de juin � octobre, la demande de bicyclette se manifeste de f�vrier jusqu�� ao�t. Ce qui explique que nombre de fabricants d�armes se soient pr�cocement �tablis fabricants de cycles (de la Soci�t� manufacturi�re d�armes et cycles de Saint-Etienne aux Ets Berger ou Rivollier... en passant bien s�r par la Manufacture d�armes et cycles de Saint-Etienne) sans avoir � sp�cialiser des ateliers1 o� tours et fraiseuses servent indiff�remment � l�usinage des pi�ces de l�arme et de la bicyclette.

2 A la MFAC, les fabrications dont on revendique la pr�cision sont test�es sur route et font l�objet (...)
7Et ces relations privil�gi�es tiss�es entre l�armurerie et l�industrie du cycle par les ph�nom�nes de continuit� technique et de compl�mentarit� saisonni�re, vont elles-m�mes susciter des pratiques similaires ou communes qui se retrouvent : au plan de l�organisation structurelle de branche (extr�me division du travail inductrice d�une exceptionnelle sp�cialisation dans la fabrication des pi�ces d�tach�es : panoplie compl�te des types d�unit� de production depuis le limeur de cadres � en fen�tres � jusqu�� l�usine en passant par l�atelier familial ou le d�corateur ambulant... ; adjonction d�activit�s compl�mentaires : machines � coudre, �cr�meuses, pi�ces pour automobiles...) ; au plan de l�orientation commerciale et publicitaire (accent mis sur la qualit� de la production, prouv�e par l�application de syst�mes de contr�le rappelant le Banc d��preuve des armes2) ; au plan des localisations spatiales (juxtaposition des ateliers dans les arri�re-cours des quartiers armuriers de Villeb�uf et Saint-Roch avec cependant une extension du cycle vers le sud en direction de la plaine de Champagne) ; et m�me au plan de l�unit� patronale (dans les premi�res ann�es de cr�ation de la Chambre syndicale du cycle, partage les frais de location et de conciergerie avec la Chambre syndicale des armuriers ; banquets annuels communs ; ententes lors des �lections � la Chambre de commerce...). Ce qui ne signifie pas pour autant que l�on puisse isoler l�histoire de l�industrie du cycle de cette autre composante fondamentale de l�identit� st�phanoise qu�est l�industrie du ruban.

Since the above photos are masked, I'll post a few of the Wonder Fusil de Chasse photos here in case another Wonder wonderer wanders this way.

Salut Argo,
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/334262904453


"Wonder" marque déposée par René Cosson.