doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com St Etienne 12 ga SxS - What's with the barrels?

Mike, being a "boomer", I recall the little "ditty" sung to the tune of "Whistle While You Work", with lyrics about Hitler and Mussolini. I have not heard the above about French guns, but about Italian weapons of WWII. That and the tanks having 1 forward and 4 reverse speeds. Gil
As for the V-C lever types, here's an expired patent version (I reckon) on a 16 ga. Brun-Latrige.

I have a 1922 V-C catalog with the same drawing of the Helice system. Somewhere--although I can't find it now--I remember reading that V-C had brought suit against one or two other gunmakers who had copied the Helice system. According to the 1922 catalog, the patent on the Helice system dates from 1907.

As far as I know, "Helice" isn't the name of a V-C employee who developed the locking mechanism, but is simply a descriptive term for it. It's the French word for screw or spiral. Webley already had a "screw grip" bolting system in place by that time, but it's clear from the drawing that the Helice system is a somewhat modified version of the same concept.

The 1922 catalog is also the one that includes a full page photo of French ace of aces (and surviving ace of aces of all nations from WWI) Rene Fonck, in which he praises his Helice Grip shotgun. "The birds fall like Krauts!" Great ad!

That little swell on the left side of the receiver, into which fits the concavity on the left side of the toplever, is a great place to get a really painful pinch of one's finger or palm. The return spring is pretty darn strong, so it will snap quick and tight if you let it. The swell also functions as a great stop for the toplever's travel.

The word/action "HELICE" was never patented...it was a generic term.

Neltir is poster on a French double gun website. He was employed for many years in St Etienne gun business and retired in 2007. He posted this post on the website explaining to French shooters what the meaning of Helice is.

http://www.passionlachasse.com/t17209-fusil-helice

I will paraphrase what he said and will enter the entire translation if needed.
Helice is just a helix screw, a method of locking a center-break gun. Helice locks were used from the beginning in center break guns but especially in under-lever guns



With the invention of the box lock and side lock and more powerful powder, additional locks were needed. In 1894 Webley came up with a triple lock system and moved the locking lever on top of the breech, aesthetically a master stroke.

Verny Carron in St. Etienne took this idea, simplified it and added a fourth lock. VC patented this in 1896 using the variants of Helice...including he name HELICOBLOC or HELISTOP and HELICE-GRIPP. However the name HELICE was never patented by anyone,..it was generic.

Because of the popularity of the Webley and VC locks, everyone piled in and began using the word �HELICE � on their release lever, usually stamped and in raised letters, often combined with the name of the gun maker or the initials and some form of word added to HELICE to make it a compound name.

He added: "It is well known that only one single long gun (ed: a complete gun, not an action) was patented under the mark �HELICE"; I was the long gun fabricated by Marcel Philippon. And following that a multitude of arms makers baptized their actions using a prefix HELICE (and variants) while adding their names or initials onto the breech combining it with HELICE."

He then attached this list of various names used by French gun-makers employing the word HELICE taken from a book by Maurice Forisier, which was given to him by his old workmates/collegues from the armorie school when he retired in 2007 (list looks incomplete since is appears to include only St Etienne armorers..others seemed to have joined in the Heli naming and etching craze).



So per Neltir, my WONDER lock can�t be dated based on Verny Carron patents. Voila.

That little swell?

Looks like a Verney Carron...according to the chart above. Correct? (just checking). (but per the chart VC patented "HELICE-GRIP"...not the double "P"...)

Argo, you're confusing the patent of the name vs patent of the action. In other words, no one could make a gun, mark it "Helice" . . . AND use the patented V-C system. V-C made that point in their own catalogs, pointing out that guns marked "Helice" that were not made by V-C didn't use their bolting system.

Larry, I think what Neltir was saying was that there is not a particular lock named "Helice" and that they all are variants on a theme.."Helice" is generic meaning "Helical." The only patented ones were the Verney Carron quadrouple lock and it wasn't labeled "Helice" but rather Helicobloc, etc, a trade name he created. i.e. once one figured out that by manipulating a helix by a lever...you could add locking devices all down the barrel activated by that lever..all sorts of things were possible. Then everyone jumped in using a fashionable variant of the word "HELICE" (helical) because that was what everyone used...and it was prominently engraved on the break lever to give it an air of solidity. Thus "HELICE" was a only generic name for a helical screw action..sort of like "ORGANIC" today..i.e. you could have put that label on any old under-lever shotgun from the 19th century.....and by itself it has no trade meaning.



Here is a translation of his post just for the record - the translation is not literal but I've tried to make it in understandable English so it catches the sense of the original.

Bonsoir a tous , je me permet d'intervenir sur ce post que j'ai parcouru avec beaucoup d'attention et de ....rires parfois !

Good morning everybody. Permit me to intrude in this thread that I have followed with great interest and with�.uproarious laughter

Deja je vais me permettre de dire rendons a H�lice ce qui est a lui !!!

Please permit me to relate what exactly is a Helice

En effet ,j'ai lu que Verney Carron �tait l'inventeur du fusil H�lice ::: que le fusil h�lice �tait une marque de fusils lisses :::: que h�lice �tait ��

I have read that Verney Carron was the inventor of the �Helice gun,� that Helice was a maker of long arms�.that Helice was...whatever�.

Et bien d�ja je vais vous dire une chose , c'est que H�lice est un syst�me de fermeture d'une arme basculante . Ensuite que les premieres fermetures des armes a bascules �taient r�alis�es au moyen d'un verrou pivotant a h�lice ...d'ou le fameux h�lice qui vous fait raconter tout et n'importe quoi !!!Excusez moi si j' y vais un peu fort,mais je pense que si Casimir Lefaucheux lisait ce post il deviendrait ....fou de rage !!! qui n'a jamais vu son grand p�re ou son voisin articuler le fameux levier sous la longuesse du vieux fusil a broche ����:::le levier qui commandait le verrou "HELICE " ,ce fameux h�lice !!!

Well I am going to tell you all a few things; first that Helice is a closing system for a center-break long arm. The first closing system for center-break long arms was a lock pivoting on a helix screw; That�s the famous Helice which you all have been saying whatever about. Excuse me if I am speaking a little strongly, but I think that if Casimir Lefaucheux were reading these posts he would become crazy with rage. Who has not seen one�s Grandfather or one�s neighbor manipulate the famous lever under the fore-stock of an old pin-fire rifle? The lever which controlled the �HELICE� (helical) lock, that�s the famous helice!!

Ensuite ce fameux syst�me dit "H�lice" grace au progr�s r�alis� sur les Hammerless notament fut transpos� si je puis dire sur le haut du boitier de culasse sous forme d'une clef qu e vous avez tous manipul�s ,ceci a cause de l'adoption de diff�rents verrous horizontaux et verticaux afin de reporter ces verrous plus loinde l'axe de bascule afin d'avoir une plus grande r�sistance a la pression , ceci encore a cause des adoptions de nouvelles poudres plus puissantes .

The famous system called �Helice,� thanks to progress on the �hammerless� system, was moved onto the top of the breech in the form of a key which you have all used. This was because of the adoption of different horizontal and vertical locks in order to move these locks further from the axis of the break in order to achieve a greater resistance to pressure, a need caused by the adoption of new more powerful powders.

Il en reste n�anmoins que le syst�me h�lice restait appliqu� parce que la fameuse clef par son mouvement lat�ral circulaire poussait un m�canisme semblable a l'ancien levier de dessous de longuesse des temps anciens (dits anciens ) et verrouillait le basculement et de l� naquis l'id�e de verrous multiples possibles sur divers points afin de renforcer la r�sistance au d�part du coup de feu :

The helices (helical) closing system remained up-to-date because of that famous key, which by its lateral circular movement pushed a mechanism similar to the old under-lever along the fore-stock of olden days, locking the break. Thus was born the idea of multiple possible locks at different points in order to reinforce the ability of the gun to fire heavier cartridges.

Et alors ? et bien c'est monsieur Webley qui en 1894 mis au point un syst�me a triple verrou ,syst�me qui dure encore de nos jours sur beaucoup de fusils de chasse ....et m�me sur les canons de tr�s fort calibre militaires !!!! :un d�bordement de la t�te de clef agit directement par friction et par pression sur une encoche a forme de gradin,taill�e en saillie dans le prolongement de la bande des canon et qui passe a l'ouverture et la fermeture sous la t�te de clef !

It was Mr. Webley who in 1894 created a system of triple locks, a system which continues to be used to this day on many shotguns and even on barrels of very strong military calibers. An overthrust of the head of the key acted directly by friction and pressure on a notch in the shape of a step, cut and projecting in the prolongation of the band of the barrels, which passed on opening and closing under the head of the key.

ET alors ? Verney Carron? et bien lui il a simplement modifi� ce g�nial syst�me HELICE a triple verrou de Webley en syst�me encore plus fiable a quadruple verrou dit H�licobloc de Verney Carron en d�posant un brevet en 1896 ! Jamais le syst�me H�lice n'a �t� brevet� , mais largement frapp� et �voqu� sur les boitiers en y accolant parfois les initiales du constructeur de l'arme !

Verney Carron? well, all he did was simply modify the triple lock HELICE system of Webley to a system still more reliable with quadruple locks called HELICOBLOC on which Verney Carron took out a patent in 1896! The actual Helice system was never patented, but for the most part the (generic) word was engraved and raised up on the breech of the gun, often including the initials of the builder of the gun.

Alors SVP ne dites pas que Verney Carron a invent� le H�lice ceci cela ! le syst�me de fermeture Dit H�lice existait d�ja depuis ..... 100 ans !avec la venue au monde du fusil a bascule !!!! et que le syst�me du double verrouillage trouva sa naissance vers 1880 et la combinaison de cette fameuse clef de dessus de boitier appel�e CLE TOP LEVER par le fameux Webley ,permit d'all�ger consid�rablement l'est�thique du fusil car dot�e de son verrou coulissant sous les planches de bascule en employant le fameux syst�me de fermeture HELICE !

So please don�t say that Verney Carron invented the Helice. The helical system of closing the breech called Helice already existed for 100 years since the brith of the center break long gun. A system of double locking was born around 1880, and the combination of that famous key above the breech called the �TOP LEVER KEY� by Webley, permitted the esthetic of the long gun to be considerably improved by being equipped with his sliding lock using the famous HELICE closing system.

Et alors ? et bien sachez qu'un seul fusil fut brevet� sous la marque HELICE ,c'est le fusil fabriqu� par Marcel Philippon et qu'ensuite une "Foultitude "de fabriquants d'armes baptis�rent leur arme a l'aide d'un pr�fixe HELICE et arborant parfois sur leurs boitiers le fameux HELICE . D'ailleurs en voici une liste prise sur un livre de Maurice Forissier ,livre qui m'avait �t� offert par mes anciens coll�gues d'�cole d'armurerie lors de mon d�part en retraite en 2007 .

It is well known that only one single long gun was patented under the mark �HELICE; I was the long gun fabricated by Marcek Philippon. And following that a multitude of arms makers baptized their gun with the aid of a prefix HELICE while adding their names or initials onto the breech or combining it with HELICE. Below is a list (of various uses of HELICE combined with names of gun makers) taken from a book by Maurice Forissier, which was given to me by my old workmates/collegues from the armorie school when I retired in 2007.

(Note: it wasn't clear to me whether this list was of patents taken out using variants of the word Helice or just listing the many guns which used the word (there are three patent names in the list). Whatever, it's doubtful I can date my plain St Etienne gun because of the "Wonder" helical lock unless I can find who made it). PS. I don't think Niltir much liked VC.

Welcome corrections to my understanding of Neltir's post...and by the way he has a great explanation on the term 'Acier" (steel) and it's variations as found stamped on French shotguns that I'll translate...explains a lot.

While one development in the shotgun world often leads to subsequent developments, patents don't work that way. Enough "tweaking" of something invented by someone else and voila! You have a new patent.

Argo, I'll quote to you from a letter I received from M. Claude Verney-Carron, president of the company, in 2002--responding to an article on French shotguns that I wrote for Shooting Sportsman:

"Helice was the name of the locking system patented by my great grandfather Jean Verney-Carron at the beginning of the 20th century. When the patent expired and fell in the public field a lot of gunmakers from St. Etienne adopted the system for their own use. That's why you can find a lot of brands derived from the word Helice. Verney-Carron used the following ones: Helice Grip, Helice 33, Helistop, Helicobloc, Heliduplex."

(I owned an Helice 33. Introduced in 1933--hence the 33--it was innovative in that it used coil rather than flat springs.)