doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com new collector

I am interested in your opinion about older sxs shotguns that may considered undervalued. A friend has been bit by the bug and his eyes are bigger than his wallet. I think Remington 1900's are a good buy.
What about Crescent Arms? Help a new collector get his foot in the door. Thanks
Swampman

For the guys that came to see Aldo Leopold's shotgun, your knowledge of Fox Guns was truly amazing, I think you and Aldo would have gotten on very well. I enjoyed our visit.

I would suggest staying away from the Crescent types and focus on high conditioned Ithacas and Remingtons. As his knowledge increases, he can move into the Parkers etc. High original quality guns will retain value. Before buying any gun, he would do well to invest in all the right books and do his home work -- JMO.

The sixteen gauge Flues are a pretty good value.

The twelves more so.

Couple that come to mind are Lefever Nitro Special and Iver Johnson Hercules. Not sure if these are collectible or not.

No expert, but you might want to direct your friend to Diggory Haddoke's latest book on British boxlocks. From a utilitarian perspective, it seems hard to beat the value of a Birmingham made boxlock in this market when you factor quality and the cost to replicate.

Walter Snyder's advice is wise. Quality and condition are the way to go. There is a reason we see so many worn, loose and parted out Crescents and their variants. They don't stand the test of time. You wouldn't suggest that a budding car collector start with a Yugo, even if they are a popular ride in W. Kniei.

Cast aside hope all ye who enter here!!!


Double guns are the steepest of "slippery slopes."
CHAZ

I think the guy was asking about collecting....

Well, W.W. Greener FP actioned guns with side safety are undervalued. This not being Great Britain I'm not sure how collectible those are because for most part people collect what was once made in country where they live.

Your friend will do well saving up his money while reading up on the subject.

Crescent guns have cast steel frames, which are undesirable due to lack of strength. Also, their quality of workmanship is lacking.

The question is why is he becoming a collector? Is it to make money over time as gun values increase? Is it as a hobby and he is going to shoot his collection? Those answers will tell you which direction to go.

If you are looking for guns as a investment stop and don't waste your time and money. The chances of making major profits that way are near lottery odds. Doubles in all but the higher grades have been a flat or declining investment for several years and I don't see that trend changing. Just how many old men are coming along who want to shoot or hunt with Sid by sees? Fewer each year. Low grade guns can be bought for the same or lesser prices than they bought 8-10 years ago.

Rare and high grade guns will command good prices still and should in the future but there are no guarantees. Antique China commanded higher prices in the past and friends in the business tell me they are stuck with a lot of nice rare China with almost no on interested in buying it. The next generation are sellers of stuff not buyers like my generation has been. Simple supply and demand.

If you like to shoot, pick a brand you like and buy the highest condition examples you can find and treat them kindly while shooting them. Or collect examples of some feature like different locking or opening systems. These are fascinating mechanical devices which show endless creative examples of design and improvement as well as dead end designs.

Here's my humble opinion, based on what I consider to be current market. I'll stick to Vintage Guns, generally made before WWI. I divide'em into "Tiers", based on price. Generally, I'm referring to restoration guns, in 15% condition or less but absent of egregious faults such as severely cut-down barrels and stocks, missing pieces, and tubes honed down to the point of being unshootable. This list is also what I've seen most available over the last few years. In each tier I'll list the more desirable guns first. If you can find a higher grade within these ranges, it's an even better deal. You won't find these prices on the internet or from a Dealer, but usually at local auctions.

Tier One. $250-$400, (depending upon condition)

Remington 1900, preferably a KED
Remington 1889, Preferably a Grade 3 Damascus, but the Grade 2 Twist is nice, as is the Grade 1 steel barrel gun.
Baker Batavia Leader.
Ithaca Field Grade guns, (Pre-NID) preferably with Twist or Damascus tubes.
Other Twist barrels guns made by smaller companies such as Syracuse, NR Davis, Hopkins & Allen, etc.
Crescents
Belgian low-grade guns, but you can sometimes find gems in this category as well.

Tier 2, $400-$800.

Parker PH and GH.
English Hammer guns.

Tier 3, $800+

Parker DH, and higher-grade guns in general.

This is a very simple guide, and I'm sure others will contribute their views.

Regards
Ken

Nothing worth owning is undervalued in the world of quality sxs's. There's always the odd great deal to be stumbled upon by blind luck, but is so rare as to be hardly worth mention.

He needs to figure out what he likes, what he can afford, and what he's going to do with it after he buys. There are so many pitfalls in this scenario that it's almost impossible to give any guidance to someone like him. So many little details and nuances about all of these guns that make or break them.

The dealers have so many tentacles that reach into all the markets it has become a rat race to the hole trying to find anything worth buying at a reasonable price. He's about to learn some expensive lessons. Dealers and individuals alike will lie with a straight face if they see a mullet with money.

My only suggestion is to buy the highest condition he can afford, regardless of what it is. But if he's going to go hunt with it and put hickies on it, be prepared for the consequences.

But to your question, perhaps the 12 ga. pre-1913 L C Smiths such as a 2E or 3E that has not been f*cked with.
JR

I keep hearing that the SxS double gun market is fading and that prices are stagnant because new collectors and shooters are not replacing the current crop. But that is not at all what I see, across the spectrum, from parts guns to shooters to high condition and high grade guns. I'm specifically talking about vintage American doubles which is where my interests are greatest.

I started out concentrating on L.C. Smiths, but would buy anything that piqued my interest and was priced right. I have not seen any L.C. Smiths that are selling for less than I could frequently buy them for 8, 10, 15 years ago. Same with Parkers. One reason I shifted my interests to Syracuse Lefevers is that they seemed to be very undervalued compared to Smiths and Parkers, especially considering their much lower production numbers. That situation has changed dramatically, and actual selling prices are much higher than they were. Not only that, but I am seeing more bidders on average in the internet auctions I watch, and I am seeing a lot of new screen names of bidders who I never saw only a few years ago. The good old days for buying Lefevers are largely over.

Remingtons are still kind of a sleeper, and bargains can be found if you shop carefully. Same with Ithacas. My last N.I.D. was a nice all original early field grade 16 gauge with very good bluing, wood, and over 60% case colors. It sat all day, 2 or 3 years ago, at a pretty large gun show with a $275 price tag on it. Cheap! I kept telling myself I didn't need it, and at the end of the day, I bought it for $225. Bakers were selling very reasonably 10-15 years ago, but they too have shot up considerably since about 2008. Foxes took a big jump when McIntosh's book came out, and asking prices were often higher than Blue Book. I went a long time without buying a Fox for that reason. They seem to have stabilized in recent years, but sure haven't dropped much, if at all, especially in the smaller gauges. I don't think I have a double in my collection that I couldn't sell for a profit at this time. Are there investments that would have done better? Absolutely. But you can't shoot gold, silver, real estate, or stock certificates. However, once I had enough guns, I made it a rule to never pay too much or to let my emotions drive my purchases. I don't NEED any gun, so I can afford to wait for the good deals that inevitably happen. Knowing what you are buying is extremely important. Knowing how to buy lets you have more toys to play with.

Your friend needs an education fast before he spends much money. Never buy a gun with major repair issues. Best way to figure out gun values is to watch a auction site like Gunbroker and see completed sales. You will see very quickly that 95% of guns listed don't sell and almost all that do sell have no reserve price. That means the seller started them very low and let the bidders decide on what they thought it was worth. Fair market value, for that gun, that day. Set your searches to show only guns with no reserve because they represent almost all of the guns which really sell on that site. By default the rest are priced at full retail or retail plus prices or they would be already sold. You do this by using the advance search feature on the site.

As to brands in the beginning is stick to Sterlingworths, Ithaca NID, Remington 1894 or 1900. LCSmiths are good but often have minor stock cracking issues. Parker are over priced by people who buy the name not the gun, just as Winchester and Browning names on guns. Set your spending limit at 500 and wait until the right gun comes along.

If he likes the Remington 1900 have him look at 1894's also. Little better quality but mostly seen in Damascus. Learn about Twist, Damascus and steel barrels as well as what are safe to shoot shells are for each. These old guns are not to be shot with modern factory shells, they need ammo designed for their period. More 5-7,000 psi than 10-12,000 psi of today's shells. That's ok because reloading 12 ammo is easy and economical still.

And understand all the stories you hear about that great sale someone missed buying don't out weigh the thousands of guns bought for too much that people never want to mention. Often the best thing to do is think about it and then forget about it the next day.

I don't know how one could advise another what to collect. The nature of collecting requires an interest, passion, and dedication that results in an on going education. Read, learn, and watch. Buy what you like when you can find it at a price for you. It can be done on a low budget. There is no magic number you must buy instantly or yearly or whatever. Watch and learn and seize opportunities, some will be better than others but there is no reason to "shoot low" due to budget. Just look that much harder. That's most of the fun

Don't forget the ever infallible collecting technique of sucking up to old geezers, (or more correctly, their wives) that already have large accumulations of doubles.
That's the surest way to get in the game deep for cheap.

Lots and lots of good advice here....As a MOAB (Man On A Budget) myself, I can appreciate the desire to own a thing of useful beauty. Before your friend does anything else, he ought to do 3 things, 1) read as much of the threads on this site as possible, and 2) order some back issues of the Double Gun Journal and 3) figure out why he wants to collect older American doubles.

In my case it was due to my duck hunting obsession.

I had a subscription to the DGJ for a couple of years before buying my first Rem 1894 10 ga. I knew that doing so would obligate me to low pressure shells. In other words I went into that purchase with eyes wide open as to it's feeding requirements.

He can't do too much research....

John

My advice would be to spend the money and buy what the rich like. Lets see, who is the best shotgun maker in Birmingham. I would say William Powell. Given that I would look for old SLE from that maker in good original condition.

This is like taking advice on buying a Harley Davidson from those guys who have Harley tee shirts, Harley leather jackets, Harley tattoos, and Harley wallets that are chained to their belt with a Harley belt buckle... but they don't even own a bike.

Jag has told us he owns one shotgun, a short barreled Ithaca mod 37 pump. He rents a .22 rifle. I didn't even know you could rent a .22 rifle. Do Rent-A-Centers have FFL's? He did mention having a 20 ga N.I.D. on layaway a while back. I guess that Obama Hope and Change hasn't worked out well for him.

I would say quality over quantity. What is your suggestion. Can you make specific recommendations?

I�ve been a SXS enthusiast/�collector� for years and over the years I�ve owned some nice guns and generally make money with my hobby, which is nice because I�ll typically buy a gun that interests me without worrying about profit. However, I tend to purchase guns that need minor repairs or freshening up and since I enjoy the work it�s not a problem for me. In fact, after my wife passed away I bought several project guns as therapy to distract me from the sadness and lose I felt.

No one�s inquired about what this man�s motivations are. Is he someone who only wants pristine guns or like me does he enjoy amateur gunsmithing or have similar talents. Being a bottom feeder like I am can make the hobby very affordable.

Steve

PS my first project gun was a Crescent. For various reasons I wouldn't own another. It was a hammer gun and someone bought it as a cowboy action gun. A fitting fate for a gun with .701" bores because the factory "forgot" to finish the bores after cutting the chokes.

I've owned dozens of Crescent doubles over the years. They are cheap, but work. My suggestion is that it all depends on the man's interest. I enjoy American doubles like Parkers, but English guns just make me smile like no American one has. If that is the same for him, less known names made in Bham can be had quite reasonably. Or start with the highest quality Parker or similar that he can afford

I think he needs to look around first at the gun shows and handle some examples to learn what to look for. Ring some barrels, check some stocks for cracks, is it on face? Hopefully go with someone who knows what to look for. Do some reading on this site and others. I have learned so much just by reading what guys post on this site! Before you buy anything get some knowledge then buy what you like and can afford.I like Ithaca others Parker or Smith. Just my opinion.

Thank you all for your input. The potential new collector/shooter is primarily interested in guns he can use.
I think the American guns are most interesting to him.
Your suggestions have been passed on.
I have loaned him several books on shotguns.

Thanks all.

Swampman

If shooting the gun is the primary motivation, money, time and risk evaluation would drive me to recommend buying a new sxs gun like the SKB. Old American guns generally have stock dimensions which aren't suited for most shooters. Many will require special low pressure ammo.

Guns he can use . . . I think the best values, in terms of guns one can use without recourse to anything except off the shelf ammo, would be in guns made since WWII. I'd put the Japanese doubles (Ithaca SKB, Browning BSS, Charles Daly made by Miroku) at or near the top of the list. They're sort of American, in the sense that they were marketed (albeit not made) by American gun companies or importers. From the Italians, Berettas and Bernardellis. From the Germans, post-war Sauers, Simsons, and Merkels. Those are probably the most often encountered post-WWII side by sides that are solid performers and reasonably priced. I've avoided the Spaniards, which is a bit unfair. Toss in anything made by either AyA or Ugartechea. These are all guns that will shoot whatever Wal-Mart sells, and need a minimum amount of TLC. They fit the general category of "good using guns for not a lot of money".

tell him don't...if he still does...at least your conscious will be clear....

One who doesn't make mistakes, hasn't learned much. Dive in while the water's warm, take your lumps, and enjoy the swim. From a learning perspective, and with the exception of relic guns, there are few double guns that can't be enjoyed. My dad said to buy the best you can afford, and you'll never be sorry. While I generally agree, most doubles have something to offer, and to learn from. No one ever stops at just one. My two cents.