doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French Shotgun ID

Probably Poudre Blanche like L. Brown's post above?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I should be happy to do what I can to get this wonderful little paperback on the Ideal translated, be it scanning (any copyright issues?) or sending it to Wild Cattle (I think you offered?). Argo was very kind to look it over and consider the project, but as he stated just does not have the time right now. And I would be remiss if I did not publically thank Larry B for some translation help when I was corresponding with the seller of my first Ideal, who was in the South of France. It is such a beautiful language, and such a lovely work of French art to come from "La Manu."

The group translation thing might work well.

Back in my Army days, a fellow officer was on the adjunct faculty of the US Army Command & General Staff College at Ft Leavenworth. He got to know the French liaison officer, who asked him if he knew anyone who might translate a French document for him. John asked me if I'd be interested. Turned out to be a mid-18th century document entitled "Le Testament du Marechal de Belle-Isle" (The Will of the Marshal de Belle-Isle.) Pre-revolution, and Belle-Isle was a nobleman and colonel in command of a regiment, passing on advice to his son--who was going to inherit the regiment. Very interesting, and a lot of valuable insights about command, even 250 years later. Ended up a dozen typed pages, double spaced. The French liaison officer was so pleased that he asked my friend if I might be interested in translating the French equivalent of FM 101-5, Field Operations. Would've been at least 10x that long. I took a pass.

In my eyes it seems to be a "L F", for a "Z" I miss the slash..
LF stands for the belgium barrelmaker "Lovinfosse Hardy et fils (Fran�ois)". More information on a french forum about Zavattero and Lovinfoss you can find here:
(in french of course)

http://www.passionlachasse.com/t22381-identification-fusil-juxtapose

The user named "Neltir" is a real expert who knows what he talks about...!
He added some pages of a Zavattero catalogue there.

Salute,
Gunwolf

Thanks Gunwolf...looking at the Zavaterro on the site you posted, here are the same initials. I'm going to post what Neitir said about the Belgian barrel maker...it seems authentic.

A few pages from the catalog link posted above on the first page. Lots of this is available on the internet. Saint Bonnet le Chateau where the factory was located is just to the west of St. Etienne.






A Darne copy�

Here is Neitir's post on the link posted by Gun Wolf. This translation is not literal but tries to catch the spirit of what Neitir was saying:

(from Neitir) Bonsoir a tous , pour r�pondre aux interrogations de Fabien , je vais essayer de vous dire ce qu'il en est :

(Good evening everyone, I'm going to try to tell you what this is all about in order to respond to Fabien's questions)

Dans ma jeunesse j'ai travaill� quelques temps comme je vous l'avais dit dans un autre post chez un formidable patron qui h�las du fermer en 1968 . ce regrett� patron �tait les �tablissements ZAVATTERO qui �taient a cette �poque (1962) a Saint Bonnet le Ch�teau dans le haut forez . Cet �tablissement avait �t� fond� par Louis Zavattero en 1880 qui s'associa avec son fr�re Joanny et cette maison pris le nom de Zavattero Fr�res .

(When I was young I worked part time as I said in another post, for an excellent organization which unfortunately closed their doors in 1968. I regret that this was the ZAVETTERO company which was at that time (1962) located in Saint Bonnet le Chateau in the high forez area. This company had been founded by Louis Zavattero in 1880 in association with his brother Jonny and this company used the name "Zavattero Freres.")

Le marquage de cette arme est tout simplement le marquage des fusils produits par les �tablissements Zavattero Fr�res et ce fusil est un mod�le ZEDEF Focor avec un canon de marque Lovinfosse Hardy fils c�l�bre canonnier Belge .

(The marks on this arm are quite simply the marks of the the long-guns produced by the Zavattero Freres company and this shotgun is a model ZEDER Focor with a barrel marked by Lovinfosse Hardy and Sons, famous Belgian barrel makers.)

Son Num�ro correspond a une production de juillet 1951 , il y a eut deux mod�les , le Focor a finition de luxe finition a la pierre et le Focor standard avec bretelle automatique et canons isochrom�s en option . en calibres 12/16/ 20 et aussi une version en triple verrou type H�lice . Toutes les productions de Zavattero fr�res �taient �quip�es de canons de Marque soit belges soit de canons Zavattero Fr�res dans ce cas marqu�s ZF .

The number corresponds with a production from July 1951. There were two models, Le Focor with a "de lux" stone finish and the Focor standard with "blued" (not sure - means strap or ramp) automatic and with an option for barrels in the same color. in 12/16/20 chambers and also a version in thriple screw lock (?). All the guns of Zavattero freres were equipped with either Belgian barrels using the Belgian mark or Zavattero Freres barrels marked "ZF".) - comment: I see why we need a gun-centric french-english dictionary: (Note: "triple lock probably refers to the "Helice" lock which you can find on a number of guns in france).

En aucun cas les fusils fabriqu�s en Tch�quie ont le m�me marquage , mais un CZ d'une autre forme. Voici une gravure du mus�e municipal de St Etienne montrant un fusil Focor du m�me mod�le que celui de Fabien .

(In no case did the guns made in Chechoslovakia have the same marks, but rather "CZ" in another script. Here is a print of the municipal museum of St Etienne showing a Focor shotgun, the same model as that of Fabien).

Now it's a little unclear to me....the barrels were either Belgian or Zavattero Freres work which were marked with ZF. So the cursive mark in the circle could well be "LF" or more likely "L Fi" (Lovinfosse Hardy et fils).

Now the question for me is, it appears these barrels have both the ZF and the LFi marks. Strange. Would like to see more examples of the Belgian barrel marks.

The CZ mark is on the other gun....I'll post them all for comparison.

And it's got me wondering about those "Hungarian" BP marks...Lots of Hungarians in Bratislava - now Slovakia but then part of Czechoslovakia. .

bretelle automatique may be similar to the retractable sling found on Ideals and Robusts: http://www.naturabuy.fr/VENDU-PAR-JEPERC...em-3201026.html


I also noticed the same "Scottish" or "basketweave" checkering pattern usually found on Ideals. Fascinating thread.

Argo, As far as I can see, the CZ in a circle is the Zavattero sign. In the oval there is the LF for Lovinfoss Hardy
Fils......So, the only thing we know is, that Builders Gun has barrels from Belgian maker Lovinfoss. But of course I may be wrong.

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Nice job, Argo. I'm guessing that Neitir made a typo when he wrote "forez". Likely "foret"--so "high forest".