doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French Shotgun ID

I've changed the translation a bit in the light of day...here is the correct sentence which changes things a bit.

(All the guns of Zavattero freres were equipped with either Belgian barrels using the Belgian mark or Zavattero Freres barrels marked "ZF".)

(In no case did guns made in Czechoslovakia have the same marks, but rather "CZ" in another script.

I.e. Zavettero did not make guns in Czechoslovakia; the CZ on the Zavattero's meant something else, probably one of Zavattero's models (and note the two guns were likely made 40 years apart..

And here are subsequent comments: Perhaps Neitir was mistaken? Because Builder�s gun has both the ZF and the LFi mark on the barrels. The Zavattero forwarded by Gunwolf has the CZ mark (CYNEA?), is also marked St. Etienne and LFi and there is a Z F with some other writing.

Here is the Zavattero Freres mark on Builder�s barrels along with the St Etienne proof mark.






Here is the LFi mark on Builder�s gun.




Could this mark on Builder�s gun might be the postal code for St. Etienne�.BP 72 ? (Seriously doubt this...anyone with an Ides? Initials of the owner maybe?




Here is the LFi mark on the other Zavattero in the line forwarded by Gunwolf. It�s also has the St. Etienne stamp and proof mark




Yet it also has the CZ mark...from the ad below apparently a Shotgun model? FZ - Focor Zavattero; CZ = Cynea Zavettero?.



And here is the Z F on the gun posted by Gunwolf possibly surmounted by "Choke Rectifie" (but not on the barrel).






Here is the mark on the other Zavattero, link posted by Skeettz on the first page:

That mark is on the barrel flats of my gun also. I assume it is a trademark. It may represent ZC not CZ. Maybe Zavattero Cie?

Don't know. The name did change to Zavattero Cie in 1930? Here is another ad from 1950 with the FZ or CZ marks and something about Cynea up in the corner?

I think it's solved. It appears that Zavattero had two models, CYNEA, the entry level model according to this gentleman, and FOCOR. Those are probably the marks we're seeing. ZC and ZF.

From a French site:

Ton fusil est un mod�le CYNEA de la manufacture Zavattero de St Etienne.Fermeture h�lice. C'�tait le mod�le d'entr�e de gamme.Les canons en 16-70 sortent de chez Heurtier.

Here is a French site explaining "HELICE" locks and mentioning that Zavattero used it in his CYNEA models.

http://fcm25.canalblog.com/archives/2015/01/06/31267521.html

(3): les Ets Marcel Philippon p�re et fils de 1933 � 1964 firent ainsi, tout comme Gaucher (connu pour ses petites carabines 22 ou de jardin) des mod�les � triple et m�me quadruple verrouillage ! Zavattero sur son Cynea avait des canons Heurtier, de grande renomm�e.

Here's Builder's CZ mark....Pretty darned sure it means it's a Zavattero CYNEA model.

The oval has Z F in script. It was upside down in the first image.

Helice . . . essentially the same principle as the Scott spindle. And, like the Scott spindle, one that has stood the test of time. I'd guess that over the years, I've seen dozens of questions here concerning a French maker named "Helice". We have Verney-Carron to thank for it.

One of the advertisements above mentions "Canons acier fin Z F bande fuyante". I was wondering if "Z F" might be a barrel maker perhaps different from Zavattero Freres...and if so, why Builder's gun would have both Z F and LFi on the barrels. Can't find any reference to a separate Z F barrel maker so assume this is indeed Zavattero Freres... maybe hiding the fact that LFi made those barrels?

But in the process I came upon this really excellent line with an amazing discussion of French powder marks, etc. which Larry and others posted 8 years ago. It is definitive in many ways and worth a read...again.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=133486&page=5

Also, in the above link to the Helice locks, there is an interesting paragraph on why French guns sometimes are not marked with a builder's mark. I'll translate that for the record as time permits.

By the way, for historical reasons I just had to revisit the identification of the mark on the barrels as "Lovinfosse Hardy Fran�ois et Fils." Here is their their mark registered in 1909



Deux fusils crois�s avec �toiles et les initiales FL est la marque du fabricant Fran�ois LOVINFOSSE-HARDY rue Hayneux, 76 � HERSTAL. Cette marque a �t� d�pos�e le 15.07.1909. L�int�ress� a �t� actif d�s 1876. Il est l�auteur de 2 brevets d�pos�s en 1876 et 1885 (voir site).

Two rifles crossed with stars and the initial FL are the mark of the manufacturer Fran�ois LOVINFOSSE-HARDY street Hayneux, 76 at HERSTAL. This mark was registered the 15.07.1909. The interested party was active since 1876. He is the author of 2 patents deposited in 1876 and 1885 (see site).

Lovinfosse-Hardy Fran�ois & Fils qui utilisait la marque FL couronn� entour� de deux fusils crois�s (voir site)

http://mallorquina.pagesperso-orange.fr/source/pageH.htm



Pre 1909 they used two marks...FL and FL in a circle: "vers 1865 signature "Hardy et Lovinfosse" voir Lovinfosse. la sucession des noms laisse a penser que Hardy et Lovinfosse �taient associ�s et que deux enfants se sont mari�s pour donner la dynastie Lovinfosse Hardy puis Lovinfosse Hardy et fils .." (R�f�rence 1864 signature "Hardy and Lovinfosse" i.e. Lovinfosse: The union of these names leads one to think that Hardy and Lovinfosse were partners and that the two children were married which led to the dynasty 'Lovinfosse Hardy' then 'Lovinfosse Hardy and Sons'.")



FL Lovinfosse Hardy and Fils (Fran�ois)
FL in a circle Lovinfosse Hardy and Fils (Fran�ois)
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html



None of these marks resemble the marks on the Zavattero guns above...so..unless someone can come up with something better, I'm reverting to the original conclusion...that this mark is ZF in a circle and is a Zavattero Freres mark.



Neitir mentioned that in 1962 there were two models FOCOR and FOCOR standard. He didn't mention CYNEA. However from his description believe his "FOCOR standard" was CYNEA. He also did not mention the ZF of ZC stamps.

However, if I'm right, then on this point he is 100% correct which eliminates the dichotomy noted above. "All the guns of Zavattero freres were equipped with either Belgian barrels using the Belgian mark or Zavattero Freres barrels marked "ZF"." In which case these are in-house barrels manufactured by Zavattero Freres. So until proven otherwise (and welcome additional information), believe this mark is the Zavettero mark put on "ZF" barrels.

And by the way the original catalog I posted from about 1912 had a lot more models than CYNEA and FOCOR.

There's little chance the intertwined CZ monogram to be affiliated w/ the Prague or Weipert proof facilities or CZ itself. Below are the touchmarks pressed into use by the proof facilities.





Cheers,

Raimey
rse

A slight tweak on ARGO's fine French translation of:

Son Num�ro correspond a une production de juillet 1951 , il y a eut deux mod�les , le Focor a finition de luxe finition a la pierre et le Focor standard avec bretelle automatique et canons isochrom�s en option . en calibres 12/16/ 20 et aussi une version en triple verrou type H�lice . Toutes les productions de Zavattero fr�res �taient �quip�es de canons de Marque soit belges soit de canons Zavattero Fr�res dans ce cas marqu�s ZF .

"Its serial number corresponds to July 1951 production..., ...and the Focor standard with an automatic sling and chrome-plated bores optional in gauges 12/16/20 etc., etc.

The St. Etienne proof mark for chrome-plated barrel is a diamond with the letters ISC within.

Regards, Tim