March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,244 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,014
Members14,391
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#443138 04/30/16 08:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 622
Likes: 1
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 622
Likes: 1
A fellow at the range yesterday showed me a fired 16 gauge reload with a punctured primer. The reload was a 1 ounce, Remington hull, with a W 209 primer. The gun was a near new CZ sxs. The primer was flush with the base.

What is the probable cause? How dangerous is this condition?

I have seen this happen in various shells from time to time, and in various guns sometimes with factory loads. The CZ is the newest gun I've seen do this.

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,065
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,065
Long firing pin is probable cause.

The pierced primer shoots trash back into the action around the firing pin hole.

I know of no danger.




I am glad to be here.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,216
Likes: 120
gjw Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,216
Likes: 120
Hi, what brand of primer is he using? Some are more "soft" than others and may tend to puncture more (Cheddites for one). Also the length of the firing pins can cause this. A case in point is my 16ga D. Gotobed 16b hammergun. When I first got her, almost every primer was pierced, I was using RST's (which use Cheddite primers)and solved the problem by having the strikers shortened up some and the headspace adjusted. Some guns will pierce primers more than others, just depends. As to being dangerous, not all that much to worry about. The problem will be firing pin erosion from the primers if they are not cleaned.

Hoped this helped some.

Good Luck!

Greg


Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
Ret
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 459
Likes: 12
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 459
Likes: 12
The possible danger mainly applies (as far as I know) to a sidelock (s/s or o/u) where in extreme cases pressure can build up behind the lockplate and damage the thin wood section around the lockplate. I suspect actual damage is rare, but the idea is worrying.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
First thing I'd do in his place is go back and check my reloads. Are they low pressure? Am I dropping the right amount of powder? Do the primers flatten out against the firing pin and make a mushroom over it like high pressure loads? What brand of primers is he using?

I blame the re-loader, the person first, then the reload it self, then the components, then the brand of ammo, then the gun. Rule them out one by one and the problem will become simple to fix. But to alter a gun first is a fairly major step when compared to changing loads or making sure the right load was used inn the first place.

A single pierced primer is not that big of a deal but constant pierced primers will cause wear on the gun that is not needed. To me a single pierced primer is a lot like the gas loss of a percussion cap or flint lock so the gun is not at major risk. A long dead friend would just say it is just porting on both ends. He died from natural causes, not a porting accident.

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 507
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 507
How dangerous is this condition?

Very.

I had this happen on a common or garden box lock of Belgian manufacture. There were thousands of this model imported in the 50s and 60s; I got mine from Wm Powell in Birmingham in '64.

The cause was an imperfectly formed striker nose that wasn't hemispherical, but a bit more like a truncated cone. It penetrated the cap, and in consequence the whole of the action was pressurised.

The effect was to detach a piece of the of the woodwork immediately behind the right side of the standing breech, and blow it just passed my right eye. The piece was about two and a half inches long and roughly the thickness of a pencil, maybe a bit fatter.

Being a right hander it did no more than soil my underpants (we found it about fifteen feet behind the shooting stand at the foot of a stone wall.) I was being coached by Joe Neville at the time, and he was standing behind me, but thank God it missed him too. A lefty shooter would have without doubt lost an eye.

If you've got away with it once, say a thank you to St Patrick, and NEVER shoot it again before the fault is identified and remediated.

KYJ posted
Quote:
A single pierced primer is not that big of a deal
Sorry Jon but given my experience you'll see why I vehemently disagree.

Eug

Last edited by eugene molloy; 05/01/16 12:49 PM.

Thank you, very kind. Mine's a pint
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 450
KYJ posted
Quote:
A single pierced primer is not that big of a deal
Sorry Jon but given my experience you'll see why I vehemently disagree.



Eugene I have never experienced a primer failure like you describe. I am sure yours is a much more personal viewpoint. Over the years I have had a very few pierced primers but none has caused any minor or major damage. My good luck to off set your bad luck.

When I hear of primer failure and reloads I think about load problems first, primer problems second and gun problems last. That comes from watching reloads shot by others over the years. I personally have witnessed between 1.5 million and 1.6 million reloads shot at clay targets so the number of bad reloads shot by others has to be more than a thousand by now. There were more than a few reloading shooters I just would not shoot with. smile

Most common was errors by the loading person, laziness in checking and weighing loads, loading with the wrong powder, poor equipment maintenance, defective components perhaps a few times and gun problems last. Squib loads, heavy loads, loads so hot that primers flatten against the primes, cases which shear off at the brass, cases which split, cases which burn the case mouth when fired are all things that alarm me. If my shells looked like that I would only shoot factory but others seem to consider it normal.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 31
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,688
Likes: 31
This is a rather timely thread!
There are numerous reports of Primer issues currently, pierced primers and failures to fire.
Often light heartedly dismissed as, too low of a primer seating , overlong firing pins.
Now Gentlemen,
Let us attend to this, there are SAAMI and CIP regulations and dimensions for the construction of cartridge components and gun building.
Due to greed and profit drive many of these issues are being overlooked.
Could we please start to document these failures , which are far greater than you would believe, and identify who the major offenders are?
Only then can we sleep sound in our beds.
If you pierce a primer , you experience the ignition of the FULL load through your breech face into your action!
I have a new Browning that has fired 50 shells and the firing pin noses look like they have been flame cut.

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 507
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 507
Hi Pierre!

Give us a bell when you have a moment ... we're (hopefully) selling up and moving back to Worcester / Shropshire.

Eug


Thank you, very kind. Mine's a pint
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,071
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,071
I guess the punctured primer thread is finished!

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.075s Queries: 35 (0.054s) Memory: 0.8466 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 06:31:45 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS