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Joined: Oct 2010
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The rankings sound like a dealer oriented tool judging by the rankings and apparently directed primarily at the SXS sector.
It is unlikely that a savvy OU buyer would rank any of the top three UK names, including the hallowed Boss name, higher than the top Italians.
Equally, anyone with enough gunsmithing-engineering knowledge is unlikely to be swayed by brand names, especially if they spot recurring faults. Checkering is an example of such a recurring fault even on BV1 items. I guess this would be called a connoisseurship factor especially when it comes to judging an unsigned but obviously quality item, whether a fine gun or fine wine.
There are two damascus knives, both made in India. One bears a hallowed gunmaker's name, sells for 1200 sterling, the other has the Indian name, sells for one tenth of the price. One hell of a premium for a BV name.
Last edited by Shotgunlover; 02/26/16 05:16 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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The rankings sound like a dealer oriented tool judging by the rankings and apparently directed primarily at the SXS sector. This work is directed at anyone who wants to jump-start understanding of the diverse values of classic Brit and Continental guns. Very few people handle a large number of diverse guns in an environment where they can track retail prices and develop an intuitive feel for values. Pricing is based on diverse auction results over a long time span. Yes, primarily SXS with premiums for small bore, double rifle, and O/U. All the BV rankings are based on market research, never individual opinion.
It is unlikely that a savvy OU buyer would rank any of the top three UK names, including the hallowed Boss name, higher than the top Italians. This system is geared for 1890ish to 1960ish SXS. However, there is a strong market for classic O/U's, which fit with a premium of something like 4X.
Equally, anyone with enough gunsmithing-engineering knowledge is unlikely to be swayed by brand names, especially if they spot recurring faults. Like it or not, it is necessary to consider brand name in any valuation. In the field of classic Brit/Continental guns, it has an eight fold impact.
Checkering is an example of such a recurring fault even on BV1 items. I guess this would be called a connoisseurship factor especially when it comes to judging an unsigned but obviously quality item, whether a fine gun or fine wine. Flat top checkering is/was a Brit/Continental fashion whereas USA fashion was pointed up checkering. Best guns, like fine wine and fine musical instruments, have a large enough following/market to cause the last few % points of value to be very expensive.
There are two damascus knives, both made in India. One bears a hallowed gunmaker's name, sells for 1200 sterling, the other has the Indian name, sells for one tenth of the price. One hell of a premium for a BV name. Per my system, guns are valued by a factor of 8X based solely on brand name. 1/8 for guns vs 1/10 for knives is pretty close.
Last edited by Rocketman; 02/26/16 09:32 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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btw, where would you place TsKIB SOO of Soviet Union? I'll need some help with this one. I think we can place the BV at three (well known Continental maker associated with high quality) or four (lesser known Continental maker and/or associated with lower quality). If the gun is the one I'm thinking of it is OQ1 (best work). Of course, CC is what it is for any individual gun. DDA Thank you. I wasn't thinking of any particular gun, just the maker's rank.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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HD, would you say the maker is well known and usually associated with high quality firearms? If so, BV3. Please remember that BV is value added by the maker's name, not at all a comment on the maker's ability to produce high quality guns. It is necessary to separate quality (OQ) from the name (BV) as most "names" supplied a broad range of quality (best work SLE to farmer grade BLNE).
DDA
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2010
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Rocketman, I understand your points and the usefulness of your guide. I particulary agree with this:
"Like it or not, it is necessary to consider brand name in any valuation."
Valuation is the key. Revelations sometimes happen and one of mine was a call to evaluate, along with others, the worth of an unsigned SXS, Brimingham proofed, superb craftsmanship.
Everyone looked intently for a name, or hint of one. No one considered the plainly visible quality features. Objectively it was a superb SXS boxlock ejector which the learned company seemed to agree would have to be valued at under an AYA No 4 due to lack of a name. That was the day I learned a lot about shotguns and lots more about people.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Rocketman,
Do you think we'll see a bit more stratification in the BV2 group over time? For example, Westley Richards continues to build guns and therefore their brand, with presence at shows, in magazines etc.
I would assume there would be some effect on "perceived" value of older WR's over time as new people become familiar with current WR production, (which I think would be considered BV1).
A corollary might be wines from Bordeaux - there are 5 first growths today, but there were only 4 (Haut Brion, Latour, Lafite Rothschild and Margaux) in the original 1855 Napoleonic classification. Mouton Rothschild was moved to a first growth in 1973 due to their perceived performance as a first growth over an extended period.
While there's a lot more intrigue to the Mouton Rothschild First Growth matriculation than I'll go into here, suffice it to say that any pre-1973 wines from Mouton Rothschild are now considered by the market to be "first growth".
Last edited by swoobie; 02/27/16 02:39 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,990 Likes: 302 |
In a weighted average, the more transactions, the harder it is to move the average.
Conversely, (and I think the valuation issue with continental guns) is that too low a number of transactions doesn't solidify confidence.
Out there doing it best I can.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,495 Likes: 396 |
It's hard for many people to separate BV from OQ. But having worked with brands all my life, I have a great deal of faith in Rocketman's system. He's not making judgements, the market is.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Revelations sometimes happen and one of mine was a call to evaluate, along with others, the worth of an unsigned SXS, Brimingham proofed, superb craftsmanship.
Everyone looked intently for a name, or hint of one. No one considered the plainly visible quality features. Objectively it was a superb SXS boxlock ejector which the learned company seemed to agree would have to be valued at under an AYA No 4 due to lack of a name. That was the day I learned a lot about shotguns and lots more about people. An excellent example of why sorting OQ from BV is necessary for valuation. This is a poster child case of where a functional bargain could be had. Be warned, though, that the market will value it low if/when you try to sell it. DDA
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Rocketman,
Do you think we'll see a bit more stratification in the BV2 group over time? For example, Westley Richards continues to build guns and therefore their brand, with presence at shows, in magazines etc. WR seems like the most likely, but, the market has not moved yet.
I would assume there would be some effect on "perceived" value of older WR's over time as new people become familiar with current WR production, (which I think would be considered BV1). Post 1960ish production is still "saddled" with its retail price. 1890ish to 1960ish production is rather homogenous, but well removed from original retail.
A corollary might be wines from Bordeaux - there are 5 first growths today, but there were only 4 (Haut Brion, Latour, Lafite Rothschild and Margaux) in the original 1855 Napoleonic classification. Mouton Rothschild was moved to a first growth in 1973 due to their perceived performance as a first growth over an extended period.
While there's a lot more intrigue to the Mouton Rothschild First Growth matriculation than I'll go into here, suffice it to say that any pre-1973 wines from Mouton Rothschild are now considered by the market to be "first growth".
The wine situation is a good learning point. Guns do follow some of the market "rules" of luxury goods.
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