doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Drilling Identification (PICTURE HEAVY)

New guy here, so I figured I'd start things off with a bit of a learning adventure, if anyone is interested.

As expected, I've got a drilling I've been trying to identify. I know, I know, you've never seen that before here...

I do plan on selling it, to get the wonder out of the way (I suppose many asking these questions had similar plans, but didn't come out with them), but I'm still curious about it's origins.

Also, knowing more about it will allow me to better value the firearm, as well as choose the venue of the sale. There are lots of places from which to choose. I've dealt with most of them, but I don't want to dig into the heavier hitters until I know more.

I'd love to keep it, but if I'm honest it's just been sitting in a safe for the past ten years, not doing me any good at all. That said, it does seem to be fully functional.

I picked it up as part of a collection a while back. Here's what I think I know:

1: I believe it to have been made in 1939. There is potential indication of that date in a stamping, but I'm partially basing that assessment on the dates between when Loesche began manufacturing weapons (Waffen Loesche), and when their facilities were bombed to rubble.

2: Krupp is a familiar name, naturally.

3: An interesting note is the "Hannover-Berlin" script on one of the shotgun barrels. Hanover being the capital of Lower Saxony, and Berlin obviously being the capital of the nation.

I wonder of the manufacturer meant to suggest Hannover and Berlin were connected in some manner, or to suggest travel between the two cities; such as if the dash between meant "to", as in "Hannover to Berlin". That would be interesting.

Adding to that is Magdeburg, the capital of Saxony Anhalt; where I presume Loesche was located at the time. Admittedly, I'm no WWII historian.

4: I don't know about "maker's marks". Something may be present here, but if it is I don't recognize it. I may have missed a few things, as well. In the places I really couldn't get the shot, I traced what I thought I saw in green.

5: All of the shots have been heavily enhanced to show detail, which makes the firearm look much worse in these pictures than it does in person.

Of course, all my suppositions may be complete nonsense. I don't know what's what, so I came here, where the experts seem to reside, and where they seem to enjoy such a quest.












































So, there we have it. Quite a few pictures in this post, and more in the next. I think there is a ten shot limit here. If any more pictures are required, I'll make them happen.

I do plan on giving it a light wipe-down and taking some real photographs showing what it actually looks like soon.

A few more pictures. I think I was limited before.

As I noted, if something else is required, I'm happy to provide it. I really want to learn as much about this as I can.

In the last two shots, I forgot to point out in the lower right there are more marks.

They sure loved to stamp things over there...

BLG & 13 grams. Roux action variant from Suhl from 1912 - 1923.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Waffen Loesche Hannover Advert:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/WAFFEN-LOESCHE-Magdeburg-Hannover-Berlin-AUSRUSTUNG-Historische-Reklame-von-1937-/151554830911?nma=true&si=hxga%252BJLZLJN3GDDlt80ZBXfza3o%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Cut & paste

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=267712&page=all

Waffen Loesche thread.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

WOW that is a simultaneously cool and creepy advertisement.

I'll have to keep an eye out for more.

Some interesting information in there. I'm surprised I never found it on the forum.

Thanks.

There's one mark I didn't focus on. I must have missed it. One shotgun barrel is stamped with the Krupp name, but the other barrel, in the same position, is stamped with another word. They may go together commonly.

Even so, I'll get a better picture of it. You can see it a bit in these, but there's no direct shot.

I'm going through the proof marks carefully with Online resources, but some of them just don't seem to be available. Maybe finding the odd ones here could help identify them later as more marks show up in pictures.

I'll post a list when I believe I have the identifiable ones sorted. Even so, I may get a few things wrong.

flyfisher,
Your drilling is chambered for one of the 9.3x72R cartridges, most likely the "Normal." version. It was not made in 1939. Raimey correctly read the marks that confused you as the bullet weight and material it was made from. I believe Raimey also correctly dated it to 1912-23.
Mike

Crown over G - proofed w/ solid projectile

Crown over S - proofed with shot

Crown over U - inspected

Eagles typically note a stage, preliminary, etc. in the process

Krupp Stahl - Krupp Steel Advertising

On which marks have you gone awry?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I was reading what seems to be the most available PDF on the net, which isn't properly arranged and doesn't include much of what I was seeing on the firearm.

It was the one from the NRA museum. I've lent firearms to the museum before, and it's a top-notch operation. Thought the document would be as inclusive as possible. I suppose not.

I then found a scan of a document on a simple image search which correctly identified most of the marks that were confusing me, some of which you've handled in your post here.

Specifically, the eagles didn't match up with what I was seeing in the NRA information, and neither did the large circle indicating gauge. Now I know what that means.

I don't recall seeing the date posted or referenced. Did I miss something somewhere?

I've read here before that date codes are commonly stamped on these, and I did find what appears to be one. It's in this picture:

flyfisher,
The date is not marked per se. The bore dia, marking in mm started about 1912. Suhl started marking the date about 1923. Therefore, it was likely proofed sometime between those dates.
Mike

Interesting. I've been putting it all together in one document to keep things accessible.

I know this is a bit of a complicated question, but if I were to ask who the "manufacturer" was, what would the answer be?

As well, if we've got enough information so far, would this be considered generally common and of low value, or worth selling at live auction?

Prices seem to be all over the place. I'll be photographing it properly soon, because it's in better condition than it looks in the pictures. When I do, I'll post the shot.

Would need a couple sets of initials to narrow the field to a small pool of Suhl mechanics. Should be some initials from the lugs forward to the forend hanger near the lower rib.

Not worth live auction effort & that's just going to eat into the realized value. You would need to hit a larger gun show to pair it with a collector/shooter who you play to be its caretaker. Search "Roux action drilling" or "Roux drilling" & see what that nets you. The 1st will probably send you to the many pages of Roux action info contained herein & the other may result in offerings with estimated or realized values akin to 500� - 700� topped with glass, with which I assume yours is not paired?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Imperial Eagles varied from proofhouse to proofhouse & also were time varying. Also after the November Revolution(1918), data suggests that the Crippled Eagle(akin to a cripple coon, can't say) arrived on the scene & Crown over said Crippled Eagles were simply ground off the long standing touchmark. Then the Eagle saw a transformation under the 1939 rules. Just display an image of any odd touchmarks & we'll see if you can put you on the straight & narrow.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I'll check for the initials. I've still got the high resolution shots here I can look at, as well as the firearm itself.

Not sure I'm too interested in shooting and care-taking. I've been cleaning out the collection, and this one just needs to go.

I don't understand what you mean in your last sentence, though. What is "topped with glass"?

Scope & rings.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Geez. I'm an idiot...

I suppose I didn't associate the term "glass" with a firearm this old, even though it's got those nifty snap in lugs on top. I never got past the novelty of that switch-toggled flip up rear iron sight. That thing is no end of fun.

When I think glass, I'm thinking about an ACOG or a camera lens.

I totally missed that ball. It would be neat to have something up there, though. I wouldn't mind shooting this, actually, but I don't want to become attached. Got to sell it, in the end. Best not to have much fun.

That's how you end up keeping stuff.

flyfisher,
Mortgage the house, and keep the drilling.
Mike

Wonderful old German Drilling
BLG: Bleigeschoss: Lead bulett, 13Gramms=200gr, The bullet they haved prooved.

I'm back. Didn't mean to run off, but I had some medical nonsense, and ended up forgetting about the firearm.

flyfisher,
I'm going through the kidney stone "thing" now; It will make you forget everything, even prostate cancer. We are, except for Raimey, mostly "old farts", so we understand.
Mike

Haha. Thanks.

I know there are few things as annoying on the net as someone starting a thread like this and then running off; never to post again. Well, that, and being told you should have used the search, when no similar thread has been posted in many years.

I'm going to try to put this stuff together again. Can't find my original document, but there's enough information here to begin again.

Looks a lot like one that i posted on here in October 2016

If you enter "Krupp Stahl Drilling ID" in the search box, there are about 200 results! Go to page 5 of those results for more pictures and information