doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com true purpose of the beavertail forearm>

i notice a lot of accessories companies that offer leather barrel slip on pads. i assume it is for shooters to protect their hands from burning them on the bbls.
so....was the beavertail f.a. originally designed for that reason?

Well... Yes. The BTFE would be to protect the hands from heat in high volume shooting, or maybe for the shooter that wants a more "full" feeling in their hand.

The leather hand guards you see are for in front of a traditional splinter forend for shooters that like to hold the gun more forward of the splinter on the barrels themselves.

That's what Rolla said; patent 1889



You will note that the style was to extend the left hand well out on the barrel; George Roll 1897



Charles Grimm



Fred Gilbert c. 1904 in an article in Field and Stream, March 1937. His Parker looks to have a hand guard



Woolfolk Henderson won the 1914 GAH with a 98x100 from 22 yards, the Amateur Championship of U.S. with a 99x100 from 16 yds, and the Amateur Doubles Championship of the U.S. with 90x100 from 16 yds. and is wearing a glove instead, and has a 'boot' on the stock

would that need for the guard be due to the length of the bbls back then being much longer? could we say the btfa came about as bbls became shorter and the hold was further back?

I don't think you can reason it out, bobski. It's just one of those personal preferences, like single, as opposed to double, triggers. I use both splinter and beavertail fore ends on my doubles. I like pistol grips and beavertail fore ends on guns with higher recoil, like waterfowling guns. It gives the hand a little more to "grab ahold to", in recoil. Based on experience water fowling and shooting flyers, I think a pistol grip is more important in handling high recoiling loads than is a beavertail fore end.

SRH

drew posted some great old pics of shooters with arms fully extended. it seems to be the norm back then. im just speculating that recoil and bbl rise must have been much more back then, therefore more control could be had way out there.

Not necessarily. Where the front hand is placed on the forend/barrels has more to do with what the MOI is of the gun, or, how easily, or how hard, the gun is to swing on a bird. A short barreled gun, or a gun with very light barrel(s), does not need the forward hand to be placed as far outward as does a gun with long, heavy barrels that require more effort to "get them moving". OTOH, a gun that requires more effort to "get moving", or to stop moving, would need the forward hand placed farther out, to increase the leverage. It's all about leverage, IMO.

This is a largely overlooked part of shotgunning, I think. Some people do it automatically, and can shoot a variety of guns, with different MOI, well. Others, who place the forward hand rigidly in the same place always, may notice the gun's liveliness, or sluggishness, more.

SRH

An extended arm as shown in the photo above is fine for controlled shooting i.e. skeet, trap..however, in the field I find it an impediment at a quick swing. Locking or semi locking your swing/pointing arm greatly slows you down. This I experienced in lay down goose blind where younger, more agile hunters were up and on the bird before me. I switched to a Citori with 26" barrels and began to even up the score.

Fashion - one very good shot can influence fashion with his choice of guns and shooting style. Fashion is likely a valid point.

Stan gets an A+ for considering MOI. I think all the parts are mentioned above, but I'll try to add a bit of additional discussion and in a differing format.

What happens to handling when the front hand is shifted forward? The front hand moves farther from the balance point (center of gravity - CG) and, so, carries less of the weight. The rear hand must pick up the weight the front hand is no longer carrying. The hands do have greater leverage to overcome inertia but must make greater movement to achieve any given change in the direction the gun points. Hand/arm movements (unmounted gun) can be made much quicker than can body trunk movement (mounted gun).

A light, low swing effort gun (game gun)can be somewhat tamed by a wide hand spread which tends to slow and stabilize swing movement. A heavy, high swing effort gun (target/fowler) can be compensated for with the wide hand spread causing more of the movement to come from the body trunk which has more muscle.

Thoughts?

DDA

Good stuff, Don. Reflects my experience as well.

Some relevant points regarding the extended arms of the turn-of-the-century shooters

1. They used some boomers.
Jan. 2 1897
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_28_NO_15/SL2815017.pdf
Charles Grimm defeats Doc Carver in Chicago for the �Cast Iron Metal�
Grimm used a 12-bore L.C. Smith gun, 7 3/4 pounds, 3 3/4 drams Schultze, 1 1/4 ounce No. 7 shot, in U.M.C. Trap shell.
Carver used a 12-bore Cashmore gun, 8 pounds weight, 4 drams of Carver powder, 1 1/4 No. 7 shot, in U.M.C. Trap shell.

2. Doc Carver was 6' 4" and 240, but most of the shooters were shorter and lighter (with a smaller waist) than today's.

3. Guns were limited to 8#.
Guns used for Live Birds had to weigh less than 8 pounds at the 1894 GAH
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_24/SL3024020.pdf
John L. Lequin. secretary of the Interstate Association, writes us under date of Feb. 25 1898 as follows:
�We have received inquiries from most all directions recently from a number of shooters who are probably desirous of entering the Grand American Handicap next month, concerning the weight of guns, and whether the handhold and recoil pad will be counted as a part of the gun when weighed. The subject has been placed before the Tournament Committee of the association, which committee has decided that the guns will be weighed naked.
Kindly note, and make this public through your paper at your earliest opportunity and greatly oblige.�

The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds - Money used a Greener, Smith, and Parker), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounce Parker), H.D. Bates (7 pounds 13 ounces), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounce Parker but after the GAH at Live Birds he went back to his Remington hammerless and won the 1st GAH at Targets), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounce Smith), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounce Baker), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounce Remington CEO).

4. The straight left arm went out of fashion after about 1910. This may be Capt. Money c. 1914, who was not a big guy and may be using a hand guard



Jack Fanning




Live action (the first minute) from the 1912 Stockholm Olympics, courtesy of Swedish Olympian Hakan Dahlby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl...t-ts=1422579428

Thanks, Don, for filling in the holes I left. Your work with the turntable has been so helpful to those who can take the time to understand it. I remember reading the article in SSM, years ago, but the "Aha"! moment came for me several years later as you explained to me why, most likely, one of my little .410 doubles was so easy for me to shoot well ........... it had the MOI of a 6+ lb. 12 gauge game gun. And, it was simply because of how/where the weight was distributed in the gun.

SRH

it would appear as time went on, bbls got shorter for reasons of balance and the ability to grip the gun closer and off the bbls? remember, im talking strictly competition guns.

if so, it would a be interesting contrast as bbls today are growing back out to longer lengths with no provisions to allow the hand to grip the o&u further out.

odd indeed.

so....was the beavertail f.a. originally designed for that reason?

According to Don Zutz, the purpose of a beaver tail forend is compatibility with a pistol grip and keep the hands in alignment.

from what im reading here is that it was originally designed to keep your hands from being burned on a sbs.

and strangley enough, when the o&u came on to the scene, the wide btfa remained, even though the chance of burning ones hand on a o&u was practically eliminated.

hey drew...just curious why youre dreaming of ks(tornado alley) and living in az!?

"True purpose of the beavertail forearm"

To take an otherwise decent looking gun and turn it into a monstrosity......

Drew,

Either that picture is much earlier then 1914 or it is not Capt. Money, or both.



Capt. Money was retired back in England, Noel was living in Herefordshire, and Harold was managing a rubber plantation in Ceylon by May 1912. I believe Albert and Harold actually returned to England the summer of 1910, and Noel had been there since his return from the Boer War. The last shoot report for Harold Money I have been able to find was May 24 & 25, 1910, at the Calcasieu Gun Club at Lake Charles, LA. A letter from Capt. Money to Ed Banks confirms what they were doing in 1912.

Dave

From its introduction in the January 2, 1923, Parker Bros. catalogue, they called it the Trap Model Fore-end --



and continued to do so through the last Parker Bros. catalogue.

In the big 1937 Remington Parker catalogue they call it a "beavertail."

so parker confirms their reasoning for it in writing. its to protect the hand.

Just one of many stupid things that Zutz wrote. A classic purveyor of misconceptions. How he ever came to be a "recognized authority" is one of the mysteries of the cosmos.

And Rocketman - once the gun is mounted the grip hand carries no weight at all. If you mount a gun and let go with the grip hand you will see - no change in the weight in the other hand. The grip hand has a number of duties but carrying any weight ain't one of 'em.

And shooting styles change as biometric/ergonomic data is incorporated into sports. You can shoot any way you like, or you can use your brain first and optimize that activity. You chose.

have another day
Dr.WtS

I'm that in actuality, all this has little to do with improved function and nearly all to do with fashion. When your hero shows up at the club with a funky new forearm and then shoots well with it, you and all your buddies want one just like it because #1 it looks cool, #2 you attribute your hero's outstanding performance to his new forearm, trigger, shooting gloves, far-out colored shooting glasses, bore cleaner, etc., etc., etc..

Those old guys reaching way out on the barrels remind me of 3-gun shooters with their carbines these days. They use that not because it is combat tested but because guys like Costa, Haley and others use it in their videos and courses. It's just fashion.

Fashion is human nature and has been around forever. Fashions come and go. Today I noted a painting of the skipper of the USS Constitution from 1812 and he was sporting a faux-hawk hair style! And who would have ever thought that, in some circles, it would be fashion correct the wear your pants below you buttocks? To think that there is actually a method to this minor madness regarding shotgunning is prolly really stretching it boys.

a lot like those ridiculous 32in small bores.....just a fashion statement.....go back 40/50years and 25/26in barrels were in fashion....go back 100 years and SxSs were in fashion..but those pump guns were coming on strong..... now shoot either in any clay game and your an old fud.....

I think it was something new to sell more stuff. Same with the vent rib. No real function beyond enhancing the bottom line.

A hundred fifteen years ago the doubles still ruled as this picture from the 1901 Grand American Handicap that shows the 22 shooters that went 25 straight --



Only Ansley H. Fox holding a Winchester pump.

A similar picture from 100 years ago would likely show at least half the shooters with repeaters.

Or maybe you are the nuevo cutting edge.......

no ones smiling!

some things never change! :>

Sorry guys. Still cleaning up after returning from the Canelo Hills area. Met up with Chuck H., his BIL, and Bill Henry; plenty of dog power with Sky, Chick and Dirk who thought Sky was really hot and delusionally, at age 10, thought he could race through the countryside with her. He can hardly walk now. 31 and snowing over the Santa Ritas as I drove up 83 toward Sonoita, and the snow hit us as we started. An incredible sunrise through the clouds over the Mustang Mountains, and snow on Mt. Wrightson to the west.

First re: Capt. Money. I think that image was from a Peters promo or ad dated 1914, but agree the picture was taken much earlier. I do think it's the Capt. based on his Parker, body habitus, likely mustache, and esp. the eyes.

Second: target gun barrel length.
Until about 1900, most competitors used 30" barrels.
After Fred Gilbert won the 1st DuPont Grand Smokeless Championship Handicap Live-bird Tournament with a Smith, orders poured in with the "Fred Gilbert Specifications": drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.
Gilbert used his Smith in the 1899 GAH then switched to a Parker.
Order Book No. 41 records BH SN 83855 placed into stock in January, 1896 consigned to Fred Gilbert. The stock book lists a D5 hammerless, 0 extras, straight stock,12 gauge, 30" barrels.
Toward the end of 1901, Gilbert received his new Parker DH SN 103649; no dolls head, no ejectors, 32" barrels.

As Researcher observed, the transition to single barrel repeating shotguns was starting after introduction of the Winchester 1897, used by the great J.A.R. Elliott, and with a 30" barrel the sighting plane was more like 32".

1914 GAH. The resolution is not adequate to ID many of the guns, but clearly a bunch of repeaters

Researcher: I'd like to add that 1901 image here with your permission. What was the source?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I_5GfGqfidbrfhpwzMvsccjDxjCd39M6nERp99wVEBQ/preview

1901 GAH at Live Birds April 1 & 2, Interstate Park, New York
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_03/SL3703012.pdf
Won by E. C. Griffith (Parker), of Pascoag, R. I. He killed 25 straight in the race and finished 18 more in the tie, shooting out twenty one other men who tied him.
2nd - J.L.D. Morrison (Winchester), 3rd - R.R. Bennett (Parker), 4th - J.B. Barto (Parker), 5th - Chris Gottlieb (Smith)
Shooters were handicapped from 25 to 33 yards: W. R. Crosby, J.A.R. Elliott and Fred Gilbert shot from 32 yards. Thomas A. Marshall & Jack Fanning at 31 yds.
E.D. Fulford & Rolla Heikes at 30yds. Charley �Sparrow� Young at 29 yds.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_04/SL3704018.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_04/SL3704019.pdf
Guns:
Parker � 85, Smith - 34. Francotte - 21, Winchester - 11, Remington - 7. Scott - 6, Daly � 6, Cashmore � 5, Greener � 5, Lefever � 4, W. Richards - 3, Purdey - 2, Saxton, Clabrough, Cogswell, Churchill, James, Lang, Baltimore, Ithaca, Young, Reilly, Boss - 1 each.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_07/SL3707024.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_04/SL3704021.pdf

Response by the New York Times April 2, 1901 �Hundreds of Pigeons Killed to Make Sport�
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F02E3DB1E38E733A25751C0A9629C946097D6CF

i thank all of you for your contributions.

My personal observation is that a hand around a BTFE is less obstructive that a hand around a set of barrels. Try it. For competitive clay shooting, give me a BT every time. If shooting doubles, the BT offers much needed protection from hot barrels.

As to the extended arm seen on the long ago shooters, it may partly be style, and it might be function. Most of the old gun stocks had more drop and less pitch, both conditions contributing to muzzle rise. Do a force diagram and it becomes pretty clear. I don't think Zutz ever took high school physics.

Great post! In my experience with an assortment of antique guns, each of which differs in terms of two relevant points here, namely barrel length and drop-at-heel, the greater the drop-at-heel (i.e. more than 2-1/2 inches) and given a length of barrel from 28 to 30-inches, straightening the arm and thereby extending the forward hand beyond the forearm definitely improves my shooting. Conversely, a shorter-barreled gun, coupled with a barrel length of 25-27 inches and less drop-at-heel, needs less arm-straightening or hand extension forward of the forearm, if at all.

If we look at the photographs provided here by another correspondent that depict sportsmen of a much earlier era, you remark that their heads are held erect when assuming their respective shooting positions, and off the butt-stock comb, which position seems to be their common shooting style and not simply a posture affected for recording a photograph. I sometimes shoot with my head similarly erect too, depending on the gun and occasion, and it works very well, if I extend the forward hand beyond the forearm and keep my arm straight, as shown in the aforementioned photographs. King Edward VII, for another example, the originator of English shooting parties, shooting estates and driven game shooting during the Victorian era when but Prince Edward, evinces an extended straight arm in his period photographs.

I would posit that the reason for the extended, straight arm is twofold: (1) the gun has a substantial drop-at-heel and (2) the sportsman's shooting style incorporates an erect head, off the comb of the butt-stock method. When you extend your arm straight and curl your hand around the barrels, you are also fully pointing at the target with your hand and extended index finger, even if unawares, as opposed to a bent arm forward hand position where you would be inaccurately jutting a foreshortened arm at the target.

The elder Charles Askins, writing in his seminal book, "American Shotgun," circa 1921, tells of his successes in the field with the 'head off the butt-stock comb style' of shooting; so indeed, there is an authority who wrote this method or style is not only acceptable to a knowledgeable professional like himself, but found no reason why it could not be successfully used afield, due to his direct experience. He positively scoffs at the idea that this method is not effective or is errant.

On the advice of the late Mr. Askins, I have taken my Prussian Charles Daly / H. A. Lindner-finished, 200 Grade non-ejector, "Diamond Quality" gun (serial no. 3633, barrels by "LE"), which is shown immediately below, having 4-1/4 inches of drop-at-heel and 28-inch barrels affixed, to the local club several times and had good success, but only as long as I fully extended my forward arm and hand along the barrels. Personally, I do not shoulder the gun before calling the target, but instead hold it in a position as I would in the field, which also helps me break targets; I like to be surprised, I suppose, in imitation of field conditions.



Consider too that target shooters usually place the tip of their extended index finger between the barrels of a side-by-side gun touching the under-rib, or if using an over-under configured gun, the pointed index fingertip touches the underside of the barrel. For example, first point at a spot on the wall with your arm bent at the elbow, which will necessitate that you must also bend both your wrist and index finger to achieve; and secondarily, alternatively point the index finger at the same spot on the wall with your straightened arm fully extended and the finger also pointed straight, in order to determine which method more accurately points to the selected spot. The straight arm method will, of course, prevail.

As to the beavertail forearm, I think it is extremely useful, though unattractive, and would employ it with all my guns if not for the fact they are all antiques and it would not be advisable to change them or their aesthetic charm. I have used pigeon guns with beavertail forearms and they are a pleasure to employ, as opposed to leather-covered spring steel hand-guards that have a tendency to slide forward while in use or fall completely off the barrels. I have tried the trick of using a 20-bore guard with a 16-bore and a 16-bore guard with a 12-bore; it does not work all that well, the guard still slips ineluctably forward, usually at the most awkward of moments, and can possibly be lost if dropped unnoticed afield. Also, hand-guards are not inexpensive, at $45 to $75 apiece or more.

Unlike what some may claim, the beavertail forearm does not negatively affect the plane in its placement of the forward hand; in fact, it places the hand alongside either side of the barrels in a better position for the hand to point the barrels as your eyes direct it. Therefore, I think we should raise a monument to whomever invented the beavertail forearm and put him down for a holiday.


Regards,

Edwardian

Agreed. My 1905 era (Thank you, Mr. Laxcoach) 12 bore grade 3E LC Smith left the factory with 28" barrels open choked, with the std. splinter forearm- was sent back in 1928 and fitted with a set of 32" barrels choked F&F, with a beavertail forearm. As the original splinter forearm fits perfectly on the later 32" Nitro steel Ventilated barrel set, when I use it for live birds, as I do not pre-mount like the trapshooters do, but use the Ken Davies H&H school technique, I find I have greater handling dynamics in that mode. Also, the LC Smith forearm in beavertailed configuration is way too bulky for my hand grasp--I am thinking about finding another LC Smith beavertail forearm, just the wood, and having Brad B. reconfigure it much in the style of the M21 kidney shaped beavertail of the late 1930's era- I grasp the barrels much as you describe, and with good success afield. As to barrel heat, I use a golf glove on my left (barrel grasping) forward hand when shootingboth at clays (on occasion) and on real feathered targets (my strong preference)-- Your comments about the late Charles Askins were well placed, Sir. I also have his book from that era-indeed, a fine read even today. RWTF

It is my (previously expressed ) opinion that the 'erect head position', at least for target shooters, is mostly mythology, partially related to the staged studio and field images of Live Bird shooters in the 'ready position' such as Rolla Heikes here



or J.A.R. Elliott and his Winchester 1893



There are almost no 'live action' images until after about 1910, but this is Mrs. W.C. Shattuck at the 1900 GAH at Live Birds, and her mount is not unlike lady trap shooters today



or Travers Island 1911. I haven't ID'd the lefty on Station 2;
John R. Taylor station 3, Jack Fanning 4, and Charles Newcomb 5.




Lots of images and infro here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c7UkkNyMTZ9NAztILpzjSLKvgIneAw5i7eqkZ3d3Eno/preview

Sporting Life Nov. 12, 1898
Rich. Oliver, a well-known English shot, speaking of grouse shooting, says he does not recommend a too rigid attitude. A military position, he declared quite wrong. He said if it could only be impressed upon young sportsmen that they should lean well forward upon their guns, with their heads also thrown forward, they would shoot much better. It is better to keep the left arm down toward the trigger as much as possible for this kind of shooting, as the leverage of the arm is so much better in that attitude.

Hard to assess the head position as the bird appears to be high, but the arm is well extended



Robert Churchill, and the barrel may be longer than the XXV

I was mulling all this over early this morning and I have to express my surprise that the beavertail was so late in coming. Black powder gets barrels hot fast. Really hot, very fast. Obviously the little slip-on thingys were offered as a solution, but a BTFE seems like it would have been one of those "Duh!" moments.

how true. some young buck working as a shop boy probably thought it out, told the master, and the old master looked at him and said....you youngins' think you know it all! this is the way its been done for generations. im not changing. get out and go empty the trash! and then the master made one, showed it to company, and became famous.
lol.

To make beautiful guns ugly.

The picture of the 25 straight shooters from the 1901 Grand American Handicap I posted earlier is from The American Field, April 13, 1901, Vol. LV, No. 15.

Thank you. It's up here, with an attribution
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19974446

Beautiful pic. And prolly not unlike almost ANY trapshooter then or now for that matter.

cool pix, Drew

have another day
Dr.WtS

yep, live bird. look at her hold point.....low.

"Run with the Fox," I have sent you a PM.

--Edwardian