doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A plethora of proof (and othewise) marks

Indeed, complicated enough that Drams does not equal dram eq. Well, best stated that Drams approaches/equates/approximates Dram Eq. From the examples I've viewed, it would appear that the bulk of the Belgian firesticks stamped with the service load data were destined for Germany destinations. Like I said ML probably had higher production numbers & that's why one sees more of ML examples from the period stamped with the load data.


Rampant Lion over ?2(E2 or T2)


ML


ML hammergun with Rampant Lion over EC?3


Rampant Lion over M


Rampant Lion over M on Felix Warnier Fab d'armes 11 Bd Bonne Nouvelle


1903 Advert

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks again Raimey. I'll work on figuring out a couple of those loads in UhMareKun

BTW: Louis Muller & Cie S.A. des Explosifs de Clermont, Liege pirated the Parker 1893 Columbian Exposition Trade Card for their cans

Thanks again to everyone; just trying to understand, and esp. establish the service loads. Courtesy of Raimey

16g proved with E.C. No. 2 for a service load of 2.60 grams = 40.12 grains = 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. "E.C." or "Schultze" Bulk Smokeless and 30 gram shot = 1.06 oz.



12g ML likely proved with Mullerite for a service load of 2.70 grams = 41.67 grains = 3 Dr. Eq. (42 grains) "E.C." or "Schultze" with 36 grams shot = 1 1/4 oz.



"Infallible" Dense Smokeless powder was introduced by L&R in 1900, and 42 grains would be TWICE the 3 Dram Equivalent loading. And we wonder why c. 1900 barrels blew

And The Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. pirated "Monarch of the Glen" by the English painter Sir Edwin Landseer



In 1895, President Grover Cleveland order 1,800 �ducking� shotshells from William Wagner, Washington D.C. and specified they be loaded with Walsrode, to the displeasure of the U.S. powder and shell producers
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_01/SL2501014.pdf

Shot barrels on a German 16-16-9.3x72r I have show;
2Gr Sch P/28.3Gr Bl.
This gun was proofed in Feb of 1907. This is of course essentially 1 oz of lead. 2Gr for the powder = 30.86 grains.
I am of the opinion, though could be wrong, that in 1907 Schultz was still considered a 42 grain powder, IE a 3 dram equivalent = 42 grains. If this be the case then this 2gr load of Schiltz is only about a 2.2 DE charge. This seems a very light powder charge for an oz of shot in a 16 gauge. On the other hand I have heard that German proof laws prior to 1912 stipulated proof charges based on Black Powder, even when Smokeless was used. Therefore most did not smokeless proof shot barrels during this era & those who did specified a very light powder charge as the service load. This gun would seem to bear this out.
If however this was proofed with a 32 grain schultz then it would be a near 3DE charge. Am not sure when the 32 grain Schultz was introduced.

Brother Hause:


Seeing you are the linguist regarding Dram Eq. how 'bout deciphering the following Sauer load data chicken scratching from early 1893:


PAPP 12-65 ... 5 3/4 S.P. .... 34 1/2 Bl.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well it gets even more complicated

42 grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
�E.C.� No. 1
�Schultze�
Curtis & Harvey �Amberite� (40 grains)
Sporting Smokeless Powder Syn., Ltd �Cannonite Shot-gun� (1897)
Smokeless Powder Co. �S.S.� (Smokeless Shot-gun) (43 grains)
Cooppal & Co. Wetteren, Belgium �Cooppal�s No. 1�
United States Smokeless Powder Co. "Gold Dust"
Dynamit Nobel's Troisdorf Powder Co. "Troisdorf"
American Wood Powder

36 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
�E.C.� No. 2 (Improved)
�New Schultze�
DuPont Bulk (36.5 grains)
Hazard Powder Co. "Blue Ribbon" (37 grains)

33 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
�New E.C. (Improved) No. 3� (1897, introduced in U.S. in 1904)
Curtis & Harvey �Smokeless Diamond� (1903)
Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. �Walsrode Gray�
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. �Mullerite No. 2�
Nobel�s Explosive Co. �Empire�
"Cooppal's No. 2" (30 grain = 3 Dr. Eq.)

Raimey: I can't find any powder that would fit "PAPP" or "S.P.", but wouldn't it be in German? Schultze Powder? I also couldn't find the grain load of 3 drams Schultze's Granulated Wood Gunpowder.

5 3/4 gram = 88.7 grains
C&H No. 6 BP 86 gr. = 3 dram
"Brown" BP 87 gr. = 3 dram

34.5 gram = 1.21 oz.

Dr. Hause:

Not really concerned with the PAPP or PAPPE(Papp Cartouche Cal. XX) & if memory serves me correct that denotes cardboard type cartridge. I was more curious on the 5 3/4 Gram or 5 3/4 Dram Eq. Also I think you to be correct on S.P. for Schultze Pulver. Ever stalwart.

PAPP.16-65 .... 4,7 5.P. ..... 28,5 BL. - Another example


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Lift these too there Dr. Hause:


ECn3




1 Gr 68 Poudre
21 Gr Plombs
Rampant Lion over ECn3

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=424350&gonew=1#UNREAD


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse