doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A plethora of proof (and othewise) marks

Hello,

The reflecting light in the photo do not help to see if is a 0 or a 1 before the word poudre.
1.81 grams is equivalent to 28 grains, probably too much powder for a 16 ga.

In the photo I do not see a "70mm" mark, so you can not be sure if the barrels has 2 3/4" chambers or shorter.
If the chambers are 65mm then a charge of 24.5 grams seems more adecuate, I think.

Regards,

A lot easier when they speak American S. Bougnet for William Read



Wolffe & Co. in Walsrode, Prussia had a London agent, George Beutner, in 1892 then established The Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. in 1894. Walsrode Gray 33 grain = 3 Dram, as was Mullerite No. 2 and "E.C." No. 3.

Also looks to have been proved with E.C. No. something

Thank you Jose. It is clearly 1.81 as suggested by Raimey



1.81 grams = 27.93 grains.
28 grains of a "33 grain" Bulk powder; Walsrode Gray, "E.C." No. 3, or Mullerite No. 2 = 2 1/2 Dram Equivalent

1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. would be the standard c. 1900 U.S. 16g load

BTW: I was in Queretaro 2 summers ago visiting my father in Juriquilla.

I believe Mr. Brown was referring to:


Lifted from:

http://gerardcox.blogspot.com/2014/06/deciphering-belgian-proof-marks.html

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A German 16 bore tube from a somewhat similar time frame would have a Voluntary stamp of 2g Sch. P. over 27 gBl.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Still looking for an image of those 4 letters under the rampant lion.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Easy.
The markings show 1.81g (gram) of Powder (28 grains= 1 dram) and 24.5g of lead shot (about 7/8oz).
This is a 16 ga shotgun. Those are service loads and not proof loads.
This is a very unusual marking for a Belgian shotgun.
AFAIK, only Manufrance (or rather Manufacture d'armes et cycles de St-Etienne) used to print those on the barrels flats, along with the proof loads.

Best regards,
WC-

So did S. Bougnet work for ML, sub work from them or did ML make scatter guns for S. Bougnet? I would lean toward the possibility that ML just made more examples that wears load data in either GR(Grammes) or ounces in that 1897 - 1903 period than most others. But I'll search for other ML examples from the period.

Also there seems to be a mixing of units. Dram and Dram Eq. do not have the same units. Dram is mass, Dram Eq. is more akin to velocity. Typically cartridge manufacturers either advertise velocity or Dram Eq., but not both.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The reason the mark is unusual is that it was only required for Belgian guns proofed for about 6 years, over 100 years ago.

Although I found it in Lee Kennett's work on foreign proofs, I'm sure he lifted it from Baron Engelhardt, who was probably the first to make the information available in English--and whose work Kennett was updating in a series of articles in Gun Digest (mid to late 70's), approximately 20 years after Engelhardt's articles had been published (also in GD). If you have the articles from both Engelhardt and Kennett, that pretty well covers foreign proof and proofmarks until about 1980.

Drams (volume), Grams and Grains (weight) and Dram Equivalent are complicated

Henry Sharp, The Gun: Afield & Afloat, 1904
http://books.google.com/books?id=BFRDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg
�Sportsmen are now in possession of two definite types of smokeless powder, the so-called bulk powder and the newer concentrated or condensed powder. The first is designed to occupy the same space as black powder in the cartridge-case, although only weighing about half as much.�

Also see p. 445 here
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0MAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA442&lpg

Bulk and Dense Smokeless Equivalents

������..BULK�����.....................................................DENSE���
.............'E.C.'......DuPont�...Schultze...�Walsrode Green......Ballistite.�Infallible

3 Dram....42...........36.5..............42................30���..�...24..............21 grains
3 1/4�....45.5.........41................45................32��..�.�..26..............23 grains
3 1/2�....49...........43................48................34���..�...28..............25 grains

Please note the "E.C." and Schultze are the original formulations; 14 gr = 1 Dram Eq. "E.C." No. 2 and "New Schultz" were 12 gr/Dr. Eq. and "E.C." No 3 was 11 gr/Dr. Eq.