doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com H Leue Berlin Double Rifle - Looking for More Info

Fantastic!

Do you know what the numbers in the top left corner of the black background drawings refer to? I was thinking bullet weight in grains?

L3n4rd,
Actually, it was to confirm both.If the bullet wouldn't fit into the case, then you would have to investigate the cause.If the case was too long,and jammed into the lede/rifling,it would have a similar effect as if the bullet were too large.BTW, I don't think the numbers at the top left of the drawings are the weights, note the longest bullets have the smallest numbers.Note the numbers at the base of the cartridges.The 474 and 474A are, I believe,DWM case/cartridge numbers.Note also the drawings are of cartridges, the chambercast dimensions will have to be different,otherwise the cartridges wouldn't chamber.In the old days, the difference in some dimensions would be more significant than they are now.
Mike

In the above drawings,the one with DWM#474 is 9x74Forester(a rare caliber from 1900,not listed in 1904 catalog-per Dixon),it shows a bullet dia.of 9.1mm(.358")Dixon shows it as 9.02mm(.355").The DWM#474A is 9.3x74R,it shows a bullet dia.of 9.35mm(.368"), Dixon shows it as 9.27mm(.365").The drawings seem to be design drawings and the "Dixon"figures are from cartridge collectors measurements.All this illustrates the variation in bullet diameters.The 118,35 mark would support a bullet dia of .358", or 9x74R Forester.However,groove diameter of .362" is closer to 108.49 ga.This supports my opinion that it doesn't make much difference what you call a cartridge, if you can find or make bullets and cases that fit.Also the rifle will tell you what it wants,if you listen to it.
Mike

I'll defer to others more experienced. That said I have seen almost the exact same situation with one of my double rifles. I own a circa 1911 JP Sauer double rifle, chambered in 9.3x74r. I don't have the primer problem that you do, but the case dimensions are very similar, including the banding around the case head.

I believe the rifle was originally chambered to 9.3x72 sauer and then reamed out (in Germany) to 9.3x74R. When you fire 9.3x74r ammunition you are effectively fire forming the case and the base of the case expands to fit the original 9.3x72 dimensions (the base of the 72 sauer case is larger than the 74R case). In my rifle, the bullets from all factory ammo cross (Hornady, S&B, norma, RWS, etc). I believe the original 9.3x72 load was probably a 194 or 232 grain bullet with a lower velocity. If I take fired cases from my rifle, they won't fit a standard 9.3x74r chamber as the base of the case is too fat.

My suggestion would be to use a lighter bullet at a lower velocity, then work back to the 286 grain bullets. It is taken me a fair amount of time and money to understand all this, but that is part of the fun. Hope this helps.

HB01,
You are correct that the 9.3x72R S&S used a lighter bullet, which I believe weighed about 186 gr.My Sauer sxs combination gun wouldn't stabilize bullets longer than the 286 gr RN bullet.When I started shortening the 74mm cases to 72mm,I found that old production Speer 250 grain bullets are shorter than the 286 gr,even though they are spitzer bullets. They shoot fine in my rifle.I have some of the new production bullets (270gr), but have not tried or measured them.Since I was only dealing with one barrel,my challenge was not nearly as great as yours.
Mike

Sorry for the absence, my motorcycle has taken priority trying to get it ready for a camping trip... ahh the vagaries of carburetion! I see some similarity between these projects... To such an end, I have no new info about the rifle. I haven't had a chance to slug the bores and measure the twist rates. I did however find some S&B 9.3x74r at an attractive price but I'm still waiting for it to arrive.

Excellent info Der Ami and HB01.

I'm quite happy to accept if the bullet fits and the case fits and it doesn't explode while shooting it, you have a winning combo lol.

Like HB01 said, I love the mystery of trying to figure out what happened to this rifle over it's life. Floating theories, taking measurements, looking at the possibilities. It's almost as much fun as shooting it! It has also been an excellent excuse to buy some more cartridge books!

To add a little more intrigue, I recently discovered a 9.3/.375, that appears to be a .375 H&H Flanged necked down to take 9.3 bullets. Does any one have any case measurements just for fun?

Also, do you think x72 brass with the larger base would fire form properly to the x74ish chambers I have?

L3n4rd,
A 9.3 based on the .375 H&H Flanged would have a head diameter of around .502" and case lenhth of around 2.94". The length is not much different,but the head diameter is considerably larger than the 9.3x74R case.As far as x72R S&S vs x74R cases are concerned, I would only consider the x74R cases.They are much more common(therefore cheaper)than the x72R S&S case and the casehead is not enough smaller to make any practical difference in fireforming.
Mike

L3n'
What a sweet looking rifle,its a beauty....great price as well
Im glad for you it was still there in the morning.
Boy it sure looks very Greener-ish,doesn't it?,& not just the side safety.
Surely ,if listed at an upscale dealer, that rifle would be priced many thousands higher?..or does the caliber,or caliber confusion hurt it?
Sweet, I sure would have bought it
Franc